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| | |-+  In hindsight--American Wars		 « previous next »
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Poll
Question: Which of the following American conflicts would you have supported intervening in with hindsight?
Revolutionary War   -37 (11.5%)
Quasi-War   -13 (4%)
War of 1812   -16 (5%)
Mexican-American War   -15 (4.7%)
American Civil War (as someone in the Union)   -36 (11.2%)
Spanish-American War   -10 (3.1%)
World War I   -17 (5.3%)
World War II   -45 (14%)
Korean War   -18 (5.6%)
Vietnam War   -5 (1.6%)
Operation Just Cause (Panama)   -7 (2.2%)
First Gulf War   -22 (6.9%)
Bosnian War   -16 (5%)
Kosovo War   -17 (5.3%)
Afghan War   -21 (6.5%)
Iraq War   -6 (1.9%)
Operation Unified Protector (Libya)   -20 (6.2%)
Show Pie Chart
Total Voters: 49

Author Topic: In hindsight--American Wars  (Read 1875 times)
President Marokai
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« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2012, 02:35:40 am »
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Also, let's not pretend supporting/not supporting the Civil War is even related to some sort of academic argument on supporting/not supporting the right of individual governments to secede.

I have no problem with peaceful arrangements of secession; the run-up to the Civil War was nothing like that, and frankly, there was no reason it should've been peaceful and allowed in the first place. Slavery was a disgusting practice that no nation that prized itself for it's "freedom" should've ever allowed in the first place. The South didn't want to give up their ability to enslave an entire race of people, and attempted to illegally secede to protect it. They failed, and the practice was ended. It was bloody and it was worth it. Ending slavery is all the justification needed.
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« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2012, 09:15:53 am »
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Quote from: Secretary of External Affairs SJoyceFla on May 24, 2012, 04:54:36 pm
Quote from: Snowstalker on May 24, 2012, 02:53:16 pm
Also, who else is disturbed that four of our users would not go to war against Nazi Germany and Japan after they declared war on us?

I believe those are people who thought that we should not have materially supported the Soviets/British and thus wouldn't have had war declared upon us.

And they're dead wrong. Anyone who assumes that Hitler would have been satisfied with Europe obviously didn't learn the right lessons from how Hitler nearly became master of Europe as it were.
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« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2012, 10:30:54 am »
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Interesting to see that World War I can only muster about 1/3 support.
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« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2012, 10:44:08 am »
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Very interesting to see how many of this forum's users are pinko-hippy-peaceniks. Voted for all but Vietnam, 1812, and 2 or 3 others. That so many voted against World War II and the Civil war is disgusting. Also, I wonder how many of those who voted against the revolution are Americans.
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« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2012, 11:01:39 am »
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Quote from: Dereich on May 25, 2012, 10:44:08 am
pinko-hippy-peaceniks

Pat Buchanan....
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« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2012, 11:04:01 am »
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Quote from: Dereich on May 25, 2012, 10:44:08 am
Very interesting to see how many of this forum's users are pinko-hippy-peaceniks. Voted for all but Vietnam, 1812, and 2 or 3 others. That so many voted against World War II and the Civil war is disgusting. Also, I wonder how many of those who voted against the revolution are Americans.

I voted against and I'm British Wink
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« Reply #56 on: May 25, 2012, 11:20:38 am »
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Quote from: Lief on May 25, 2012, 02:21:43 am
Quote from: Miamiu1027 on May 24, 2012, 04:01:53 pm
Quote from: Lief on May 24, 2012, 03:46:47 pm
Quote from: Miamiu1027 on May 24, 2012, 02:39:28 pm
against the invasion of the South.

explain

the burden is on those who would favor an action, rather than it would be on me to prove a negative.  so you can start us off.

Slavery was bad; the Civil War ended it.

the average Southern black life (adjusting for broader trend-line quality-of-life increases) was no better in, say, 1950 than it was in 1860.
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« Reply #57 on: May 25, 2012, 12:59:49 pm »
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Quote from: Miamiu1027 on May 25, 2012, 11:20:38 am
Quote from: Lief on May 25, 2012, 02:21:43 am
Quote from: Miamiu1027 on May 24, 2012, 04:01:53 pm
Quote from: Lief on May 24, 2012, 03:46:47 pm
Quote from: Miamiu1027 on May 24, 2012, 02:39:28 pm
against the invasion of the South.

explain

the burden is on those who would favor an action, rather than it would be on me to prove a negative.  so you can start us off.

Slavery was bad; the Civil War ended it.

the average Southern black life (adjusting for broader trend-line quality-of-life increases) was no better in, say, 1950 than it was in 1860.

I find this way of thinking incredibly obtuse.  You're completely ignoring the enormous psychological benefit of no longer being someone else's property.  Not having to worry about having your kids torn from you and sold away is pretty damn important.
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« Reply #58 on: May 25, 2012, 01:00:56 pm »
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Quote from: LBJer on May 25, 2012, 12:59:49 pm
Quote from: Miamiu1027 on May 25, 2012, 11:20:38 am
Quote from: Lief on May 25, 2012, 02:21:43 am
Quote from: Miamiu1027 on May 24, 2012, 04:01:53 pm
Quote from: Lief on May 24, 2012, 03:46:47 pm
Quote from: Miamiu1027 on May 24, 2012, 02:39:28 pm
against the invasion of the South.

explain

the burden is on those who would favor an action, rather than it would be on me to prove a negative.  so you can start us off.

Slavery was bad; the Civil War ended it.

the average Southern black life (adjusting for broader trend-line quality-of-life increases) was no better in, say, 1950 than it was in 1860.

I find this way of thinking incredibly obtuse.  You're completely ignoring the enormous psychological benefit of no longer being someone else's property.  Not having to worry about having your kids torn from you and sold away is pretty damn important.

The greatest trick of all was convincing people that wage slavery isn't related to chattel slavery.
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« Reply #59 on: May 25, 2012, 01:26:47 pm »
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you also had the mass use of extralegal state terror directed at blacks, a post-Reconstruction development without parallel in the pre-1861 universe.
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« Reply #60 on: May 25, 2012, 01:51:05 pm »
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Quote from: Dereich on May 25, 2012, 10:44:08 am
Very interesting to see how many of this forum's users are pinko-hippy-peaceniks. Voted for all but Vietnam, 1812, and 2 or 3 others. That so many voted against World War II and the Civil war is disgusting. Also, I wonder how many of those who voted against the revolution are Americans.
Please call Ron Paul, Pat Buchanan, and Robert Taft "pinkos". Have you ever even served?
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« Reply #61 on: May 25, 2012, 02:42:06 pm »
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Quote from: Miamiu1027 on May 25, 2012, 01:26:47 pm
you also had the mass use of extralegal state terror directed at blacks, a post-Reconstruction development without parallel in the pre-1861 universe.

I think legal slavery on a massive scale is somewhat comparable, actually.
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« Reply #62 on: May 25, 2012, 02:44:04 pm »
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ok, but in order to justify a mass invasion that killed hundreds of thousands of people and ravaged an entire region (country?), the burden to prove is on you that any difference was worth this very substantial cost.
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« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2012, 04:58:17 pm »
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Quote from: Lulu on May 25, 2012, 10:30:54 am
Interesting to see that World War I can only muster about 1/3 support.

It isn't as though the side America was on was particularly superior morally to the other side.
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« Reply #64 on: May 25, 2012, 05:07:43 pm »
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Quote from: Lulu on May 25, 2012, 10:30:54 am
Interesting to see that World War I can only muster about 1/3 support.

WWI was the one without concentration camps (so no major event that is seared into our collective consciousness), and is also the one American entered for only about a year, so it gets only a page or three in the history textbooks (compared to the whole chapter on WWII).
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« Reply #65 on: May 25, 2012, 05:10:41 pm »
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....and it killed German culture in the US for no good reason.
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« Reply #66 on: May 25, 2012, 05:24:51 pm »
Quote from: dead0man on May 25, 2012, 05:10:41 pm
....and it killed German culture in the US for no good reason.

Well the CW these days is that the Germans were in fact the villain in WWI. Please don't ask me for details. I just remember the bottom line at this point. Sure US reaction to Germans in the US was paranoid, but then we interned the Japanese in WWII as well, so I guess paranoia comes with the territory.
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President Marokai
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« Reply #67 on: May 25, 2012, 10:28:38 pm »
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Quote from: Dereich on May 25, 2012, 10:44:08 am
Also, I wonder how many of those who voted against the revolution are Americans.

Please, happily recognize me as being an anti-Revolution American.
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« Reply #68 on: May 25, 2012, 11:30:18 pm »
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Yeah, the American Revolution was obviously not something I would have supported.
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Quote from: Sibboleth on February 28, 2009, 04:08:37 pm
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« Reply #69 on: May 26, 2012, 05:19:20 am »
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Quote from: Marokai Béliqueux on May 25, 2012, 10:28:38 pm
Quote from: Dereich on May 25, 2012, 10:44:08 am
Also, I wonder how many of those who voted against the revolution are Americans.

Please, happily recognize me as being an anti-Revolution American.

I'm curious as to why you are.
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« Reply #70 on: May 26, 2012, 05:30:33 am »
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Quote from: Torie on May 25, 2012, 05:24:51 pm
Well the CW these days is that the Germans were in fact the villain in WWI.

I wouldn't put it quite like that, but, basically, yes. With most of the relevant arguments being made by German historians, as it happens.
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« Reply #71 on: May 26, 2012, 11:15:22 am »
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Quote from: Lulu on May 25, 2012, 11:04:01 am
Quote from: Dereich on May 25, 2012, 10:44:08 am
Very interesting to see how many of this forum's users are pinko-hippy-peaceniks. Voted for all but Vietnam, 1812, and 2 or 3 others. That so many voted against World War II and the Civil war is disgusting. Also, I wonder how many of those who voted against the revolution are Americans.

I voted against and I'm British Wink

u mad we won? Tongue
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Speaker Dereich
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« Reply #72 on: May 26, 2012, 01:00:41 pm »
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Quote from: ChairmanSanchez on May 25, 2012, 01:51:05 pm
Quote from: Dereich on May 25, 2012, 10:44:08 am
Very interesting to see how many of this forum's users are pinko-hippy-peaceniks. Voted for all but Vietnam, 1812, and 2 or 3 others. That so many voted against World War II and the Civil war is disgusting. Also, I wonder how many of those who voted against the revolution are Americans.
Please call Ron Paul, Pat Buchanan, and Robert Taft "pinkos". Have you ever even served?

It was more a non serious comment on the users of the atlas forums than an insult to any of those fine gentlemen.
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« Reply #73 on: May 26, 2012, 01:22:39 pm »
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Quote from: Dereich on May 26, 2012, 01:00:41 pm
Quote from: ChairmanSanchez on May 25, 2012, 01:51:05 pm
Quote from: Dereich on May 25, 2012, 10:44:08 am
Very interesting to see how many of this forum's users are pinko-hippy-peaceniks. Voted for all but Vietnam, 1812, and 2 or 3 others. That so many voted against World War II and the Civil war is disgusting. Also, I wonder how many of those who voted against the revolution are Americans.
Please call Ron Paul, Pat Buchanan, and Robert Taft "pinkos". Have you ever even served?

It was more a non serious comment on the users of the atlas forums than an insult to any of those fine gentlemen.
Rereading it, I understand Wink I assumed that you were making a CaDan-NY Jew style post.
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« Reply #74 on: May 26, 2012, 03:11:42 pm »
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Quote from: Remember The Jmfcsts on May 26, 2012, 11:15:22 am
Quote from: Lulu on May 25, 2012, 11:04:01 am
Quote from: Dereich on May 25, 2012, 10:44:08 am
Very interesting to see how many of this forum's users are pinko-hippy-peaceniks. Voted for all but Vietnam, 1812, and 2 or 3 others. That so many voted against World War II and the Civil war is disgusting. Also, I wonder how many of those who voted against the revolution are Americans.

I voted against and I'm British Wink

u mad we won? Tongue

*Lost every battle but won the war Wink
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