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Author Topic: The infraction system has not improved the forum; therefore it must be scrapped.  (Read 1816 times)
ℒief
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« on: May 23, 2012, 10:13:21 pm »
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I think we too often forget that the point of the "infraction system" and indeed even the moderators who are tasked with enforcing it, is not to cause controversy or allow a handful of people to go on virtual power trips, but to improve the forum, by deterring posters from making posts that damage the forum discourse. The end goal of any forum moderation should be to make the forum better, or at the very least to prevent it from getting worse.

But since the "infraction system" has been implemented, it's proven to be an inadequate and ineffectual tool for deterring the sort of posts that Leip believes to be contrary to the forum's purpose. In fact, the most recent banning of a troll, Straha, took place completely outside of the "infraction system." It appears that, when there truly is a threat to the forum's well-being, extra-judicial measures are now taken, so little confidence remains among the forum leadership in the system's ability to achieve its presumed purpose.

Rather, the "infraction system" has only generated conflict and, perversely and ironically, encouraged rather than deterred bad posting. It used to be that all forum moderation was done "extra-judicially". There was no central, bureaucratic system for punishment. Instead, when something particularly egregious happened, the moderators and administrators took it upon themselves to punish the poster. But because there was no central "judicial" system, only the most damaging posts and actions were ever actually punished. Under the old system, one knew that any punishment signaled an incredibly serious transgression. This lack of transparency and arbitrariness forced posters to "toe the line" and be extra careful in their posting.

The "infraction system", by recognizing and regularizing forum crime and punishment, has in effect decriminalized the majority of negative behavior. What disincentive is there to post pornography, as an example, on the forum if one knows that the maximum punishment is ten points that mean literally nothing until another forty have been accumulated? Ironically, by making the system of punishment more transparent and giving posters more information, "criminality" has only been encouraged. Thus, it is time we recognize that the "infraction system", having, on the one hand, failed to dramatically cut down on trolling or other sorts of malfeasance, and on the other having de facto "decriminalized" negative behavior, is a failure. The forum administration should stop defending this failed system and scrap it as soon as possible.  
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 11:17:58 pm by Lief »Logged

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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2012, 10:34:23 pm »
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Who's defending it?  I think we all want to see it go.
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2012, 10:38:44 pm »
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Who's defending it?  I think we all want to see it go.

You certainly did when I made the same point before.
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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2012, 10:39:23 pm »
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Who's defending it?  I think we all want to see it go.

You certainly did when I made the same point before.

Recently?
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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2012, 10:40:16 pm »
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Though it seems mods are beginning to agree as I just had two posts deleted (Though I fail to see how either one is trolling or a personal attack, one was simply pointing out the pastor who wants to imprison homosexuals behind an electric fence preaches in a suit and tie, another for telling NY Jew he should accept Christ) and received no death points.
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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2012, 10:44:05 pm »
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Who's defending it?  I think we all want to see it go.

You certainly did when I made the same point before.

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http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=151087.0
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« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2012, 10:48:25 pm »
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I wasn't really defending the system overall, just against your point.  My problem with the system isn't overmoderation but that chronic trolls who know how to game the system slip through the cracks.
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« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2012, 10:54:42 pm »
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Contrary to popular opinion, the infraction point system is not popular with the mods, at least among those who've expressed an opinion on the matter.  But we still issue infraction points, because that's the system that's been imposed from above.  I'm all for trying to convince The Powers That Be to do away with points, as long as we're clear about what, exactly, it's being replaced with.

Also, I continue to think that people too easily conflate the question of whether we have infraction points with what types of posts get moderated.  I'll quote myself rather than retype all of this:

I think the question of whether we have infraction points and what gets moderated are more separate issues than some of you may think.  Just browsing through the mod reports, one does not get the impression that nearly as many people are engaging in the sort of hunt-and-report behavior as BRTD seems to be suggesting.  You could do away with infraction points, and still have a similar number of posts being deleted or edited as is happening now.  Or you could keep infraction points, and relax moderation standards.  Even if the two rose up over similar time periods, it doesn't mean that removing one removes the other.

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« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2012, 01:11:29 pm »
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Widespread opposition to the infraction system among the moderators is news to me, as I'm sure it is to most posters. Let's hope the power that is listens.
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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2012, 01:39:21 pm »
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Nothing would stop you from not handing out points, of course.
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« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2012, 02:20:10 pm »
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Quote
Quote from: Ghost_white on May 17, 2012, 04:24:14 pm
Quote from: Emperor PiT on May 17, 2012, 03:35:44 pm
Quote from: Iatrogenesis on May 17, 2012, 01:29:37 pm
Quote from: Emperor PiT on May 17, 2012, 01:25:09 pm
    A good person, & emblematic of the right kind of attitude.

How so? The whole point of him posting that is to show his superiority to everyone who doesn't fit into that particular box he sets himself. Why else boast of going to be in the 1%? I mean who does that, really?

     I understood his "I am not the 99%" bit to be declaring that he does not feel solidarity with the occupier crowd, not necessarily that he is the 1%. Of course, such subtleties can be difficult to communicate over the internet.

     The way I see it, so many people today suffer from a need for instant gratification & an inability to take responsibility. His lifestyle demonstrates a great deal of self-control and responsibility. I'll admit that his tone is slightly patronizing, but I still find his story to be something intensely admirable.
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Post Deleted for Discrimination / Hatefullness with 2 (out of 10) infraction points

is lief a racist too for repeating my 'hateful' comment? i think it was pretty clear in context that my comment had nothing to do with race and everything to do with criticizing what i view to be an oppressive financial system and the people who (implicitly) stand opposed to any attempt to rein it in and/or blame its victims. hence the 'house slave' analogy, which simfan somehow totally missed. perhaps in poor taste but certainly not 'hate speech.' i think that was clear to the vast majority of people who responded to that thread but somehow not certain moderators. this system has lead to the forum becoming a very humorless and stifling place as of late. it is very disheartening.
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That has got to be one of the most retarded proposals I have read on this forum.

Don't worry, I'm sure more will crop up shortly.
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« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2012, 03:20:06 pm »
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The same posts that are deleted/modified would still be deleted/modified without the points.  The points primarily serve as a convenient tallyboard for who is getting repeatedly deleted/modified.  I do think a change might be a good idea (mainly because it alienates good posters to see a 2 point infraction when the number doesn't really mean anything), but it'd be wrong to think that getting rid of points will mean the rules are loosening.
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« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2012, 03:39:43 pm »
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The same posts that are deleted/modified would still be deleted/modified without the points.  The points primarily serve as a convenient tallyboard for who is getting repeatedly deleted/modified.  I do think a change might be a good idea (mainly because it alienates good posters to see a 2 point infraction when the number doesn't really mean anything), but it'd be wrong to think that getting rid of points will mean the rules are loosening.

yes, we understand the Infraction System is not the only problem, for somewhere it was written:

"The Humor of the ‘Troll’ is beset on all sides by the inequities of Infractions Systems and the tyranny of evil Mods."






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« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2012, 11:09:15 pm »
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« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2012, 11:29:49 pm »
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An idea popped into my head. Dump the infraction point system. Moderators interact with problem posters and their posts (maybe deleting, maybe editing, maybe importuning, whether on the thread of by PM per the mod's best judgment), trying to work with a poster to fit into a mod's idea of what is appropriate for his Board, and if that does not work, and after warnings, that mod can petition all the mods, that that poster get a strike. If a majority agrees after reviewing the written record, and the totality of the circumstances, one strike it is. If not, no strike. As a check against a mod enabling someone gone wild, the mods by a three quarters vote, can vote for a strike at any time. If a poster gets three strikes, he's out.

So infraction points get replaced by a three strikes and you are out  regime. It has some checks and balances vis a vis outlier mods (going both ways), encourages mods to work with posters constructively (which will increase the odds of a strike if after having done that, it seems all for naught, and absent that, might make it hard to gain a vote for a strike), and gets rid of the petty things, and the bitching about petty things. If a poster and a mod don't get along, the poster can always seek another board and a more friendly mod. That is in the mix too. The mods of course should try to agree on some basic standards which comport with the DAVE vision, and their own sensibilities about how best to carry out that vision, bearing in mind the culture and history of the site, and its denizens.

Anyway, rather than cursing the darkness, or making absurd proposals, maybe it is time to try to light a candle. Just a thought.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 09:41:48 am by Torie »Logged
ℒief
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« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2012, 12:15:50 am »
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That is, to my knowledge, how the system worked before the infraction system was put into place, though without a clear "three strike" system. But clearly it would be better to return the system to one of moderators interacting directly with "problem posters" rather than the impersonal and removed infraction system.
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« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2012, 12:47:13 am »
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That is, to my knowledge, how the system worked before the infraction system was put into place, though without a clear "three strike" system. But clearly it would be better to return the system to one of moderators interacting directly with "problem posters" rather than the impersonal and removed infraction system.

The same stupid system that now just took down one of the legends of Atlas. Sad
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« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2012, 11:00:29 am »
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That is, to my knowledge, how the system worked before the infraction system was put into place, though without a clear "three strike" system. But clearly it would be better to return the system to one of moderators interacting directly with "problem posters" rather than the impersonal and removed infraction system.

The same stupid system that now just took down one of the legends of Atlas. Sad

One of the "legends of Atlas" took himself down by being a constant troll, and intentionally gaming the infraction system. He was, essentially, shouting: "Ban me, mods! I dare you!"

I mean, Jesus, most folks don't even have 10 points, and he had 100.
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« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2012, 11:12:38 am »
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That is, to my knowledge, how the system worked before the infraction system was put into place, though without a clear "three strike" system. But clearly it would be better to return the system to one of moderators interacting directly with "problem posters" rather than the impersonal and removed infraction system.

The same stupid system that now just took down one of the legends of Atlas. Sad

One of the "legends of Atlas" took himself down by being a constant troll, and intentionally gaming the infraction system. He was, essentially, shouting: "Ban me, mods! I dare you!"

I mean, Jesus, most folks don't even have 10 points, and he had 100.

And the moderators did a lot to encourage him over the years by playing his game.
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« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2012, 12:00:31 pm »
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That is, to my knowledge, how the system worked before the infraction system was put into place, though without a clear "three strike" system. But clearly it would be better to return the system to one of moderators interacting directly with "problem posters" rather than the impersonal and removed infraction system.

The same stupid system that now just took down one of the legends of Atlas. Sad

One of the "legends of Atlas" took himself down by being a constant troll, and intentionally gaming the infraction system. He was, essentially, shouting: "Ban me, mods! I dare you!"

I mean, Jesus, most folks don't even have 10 points, and he had 100.

or, he had the audacity to argue against gay marriage on your board.  which was what gave him a 20-point kick in the past week.
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« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2012, 12:08:16 pm »
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That is, to my knowledge, how the system worked before the infraction system was put into place, though without a clear "three strike" system. But clearly it would be better to return the system to one of moderators interacting directly with "problem posters" rather than the impersonal and removed infraction system.

The same stupid system that now just took down one of the legends of Atlas. Sad

One of the "legends of Atlas" took himself down by being a constant troll, and intentionally gaming the infraction system. He was, essentially, shouting: "Ban me, mods! I dare you!"

I mean, Jesus, most folks don't even have 10 points, and he had 100.

or, he had the audacity to argue against gay marriage on your board.  which was what gave him a 20-point kick in the past week.

Wow, I thought this thread was about the blacks.......

The Atlas doesn't allow thread titles to be posted in Flamer Red, as in:

"It's Getting DARK...U.S. Churces being forced to allow use for homosexuals"

 

Yeah, that's totally reasoned argument and not blatant bigotry.  Sure.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2012, 12:52:40 pm »
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That is, to my knowledge, how the system worked before the infraction system was put into place, though without a clear "three strike" system. But clearly it would be better to return the system to one of moderators interacting directly with "problem posters" rather than the impersonal and removed infraction system.

The same stupid system that now just took down one of the legends of Atlas. Sad

One of the "legends of Atlas" took himself down by being a constant troll, and intentionally gaming the infraction system. He was, essentially, shouting: "Ban me, mods! I dare you!"

I mean, Jesus, most folks don't even have 10 points, and he had 100.

Word.
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« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2012, 01:33:54 pm »
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or, he had the audacity to argue against gay marriage on your board.  which was what gave him a 20-point kick in the past week.

And he deserved every last one of those 20. Opposition to gay marriage is absolutely tolerable, using derogatory terms toward gays while you do it is most definitely not. I make no apologies for those 20, and will point out that those 20 wouldn't have had any impact at all had he not racked up 80 elsewhere.
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« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2012, 09:25:49 pm »
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or, he had the audacity to argue against gay marriage on your board.  which was what gave him a 20-point kick in the past week.

And he deserved every last one of those 20. Opposition to gay marriage is absolutely tolerable, using derogatory terms toward gays while you do it is most definitely not. I make no apologies for those 20, and will point out that those 20 wouldn't have had any impact at all had he not racked up 80 elsewhere.
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« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2012, 03:48:37 am »
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So you can't post on here if you're deemed to be bigoted now? Wow, this forum is going to get very boring fast.
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