Olmert: Jerusalem must be partitioned

[danny]

As I said, status quo I think may be the dirty little secret with respect to the West Bank side.

BTW, my dearest Torie, we lack a Palestinian here to enlighten us on dreams and sensibilities of that community. But we have an Israeli Jew, who has been kind enough to confirm my point. Notice, though we are on the opposite sides of the moral wall w/ danny, we agree on the descriptive substance: there is little in the status quo that offends at least this citizen of Israel, and there is no real desire to explore alternatives - nor any horror at the possibility of the "radical solution", as long as his side is doing the solving.

Now, I have no doubt that it wouldn't be hard to find similar points of view on the other side - though they are likely to lack in the English department. And that point of view, of course, would be equally horrifying from my standpoint. But is there really an asymmetry here between the sides, except in terms of the actual strength and formal educational attainment?

I represent my opinion, not that of the community. As the saying goes: "for every two Jews there are three opinions".

And it isn't that I think the status quo is a great solution, but it is the best we currently have. The perfect solution would involve neither side wanting to harm the other, and if that were the case than any deal would be fine, and both a two state and one state would work, but I see no way of reaching this.

[dead0man]

Yeah, thank your god that the US came in and saved the day in '48,'56,'67,'73 and '82.

[danny]

The State of Israel: Lookin' for a handout.

Seriously, Israel is like that little kid who starts fights knowing his big brother will intervene to save his ass. One of these days Israel will reap what she has sown.

It's the US that likes to bring in allies to fight its wars for them, Israel fights its wars alone.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

The State of Israel: Lookin' for a handout.

Seriously, Israel is like that little kid who starts fights knowing his big brother will intervene to save his ass. One of these days Israel will reap what she has sown.

It's the US that likes to bring in allies to fight its wars for them, Israel fights its wars alone.

True,  but Israel’s army is designed for short, blitzkrieg type conflicts. Hence wars like the "Six Day War" and the "October War". But, the rise of Islamist governments in Egypt, and potentially in Syria can only strengthen Iran’s military potential against Israel. While Egypt and Syria can be taken care of in the opening stages of such a war (Israel has not quit preparing for such a invasion even after peace was made with Sadat) , it does give Iranian troops (how Iranian troops would even get to the front is beyond me) a head start and can launch a counter offensive against the IDF.

I just had this debate today with my grandmother, who is very pro Israel. I, on the other hand, support Israel’s right to exist and defend herself, but not it’s right to expand any further. And if such a war broke out, and by a miracle, Israel is occupied, a second Holocaust  is not going to happen—the international repercussions would be massive. Tehran would be occupied by UN troops within a week. The same repercussions would be applied if Iran actually launched a nuclear weapon. So, all in all, Israel is in far less danger than the hardcore Zionist like to believe, and does not need to be as militaristic.

Israel will reap what it sows, and so will Iran. If Israel does not want to split Jerusalem, than Israel should expect the Palestinians to react violently, and if Palestinians don’t stop blowing themselves up, than they should not expect Israel to loosen its grip any time soon.

[Torie]

The State of Israel: Lookin' for a handout.

Seriously, Israel is like that little kid who starts fights knowing his big brother will intervene to save his ass. One of these days Israel will reap what she has sown.

It's the US that likes to bring in allies to fight its wars for them, Israel fights its wars alone.

I tend to doubt that Israel would still exist, if the US did not exist, and in that last war, Israel was rather close to the edge, and the US gave rather massive assistance.  Israel worries and works US public opinion as one of its major priorities, and it should do so.

[Cory]

I tend to doubt that Israel would still exist, if the US did not exist, and in that last war, Israel was rather close to the edge, and the US gave rather massive assistance.  Israel worries and works US public opinion as one of its major priorities, and it should do so.

This. When I said handouts I was referring more to the diplomatic side of things. We (the US) stand up for Israel when she frankly doesn't deserve it. When anyone suggests otherwise, the all-powerful Israel lobby cries "Anti-semite" and their Christian Zionist useful idiots chant along with them.

"How dare you adjust your foreign policy when it doesn't benefit us, you must be an anti-semite!" It's frankly pathetic.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Methinks this thread would be better off dead.

[Torie]

Methinks this thread would be better off dead.

Perhaps you can reanimate it with your opinion of the matter(s) at hand.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

No, whenever any thread on this subject hits a certain point, it's unsalvageable and is better off being quietly shut down...

[Vosem]

Fukk. I just wrote a giant post with my proposed Israel-Palestine boundary and a reply to some of the posters here, particularly Cory, who I think is being outright -- dare I say it? -- anti-Semitic, and Torie, who I usually agree with, who has some more reasonable concerns and with whom I also disagree.

[Cory]

particularly Cory, who I think is being outright -- dare I say it? -- anti-Semitic,

How so? I just think the phrase gets thrown around too much by people as a method to shut down debate.

[MaxQue]

Fukk. I just wrote a giant post with my proposed Israel-Palestine boundary and a reply to some of the posters here, particularly Cory, who I think is being outright -- dare I say it? -- anti-Semitic, and Torie, who I usually agree with, who has some more reasonable concerns and with whom I also disagree.

Again.

Critizing the actions of the Israeli government isn't anti-semitism, just as critizing the actions of US government isn't anti-americanism.

[danny]

Fukk. I just wrote a giant post with my proposed Israel-Palestine boundary and a reply to some of the posters here, particularly Cory, who I think is being outright -- dare I say it? -- anti-Semitic, and Torie, who I usually agree with, who has some more reasonable concerns and with whom I also disagree.

I disagree with cory of course, but I don't see anything anti-Semitic about anything he wrote.

[Vosem]

The State of Israel: Lookin' for a handout.

Seriously, Israel is like that little kid who starts fights knowing his big brother will intervene to save his ass. One of these days Israel will reap what she has sown.

Well, 1) this comment is, I think, very anti-Israeli to the point of being derogatory, and a perversion of the truth -- you're supposing that Israel 'starts wars' (when has Israel been the first one to fire a shot since she preempted Egypt in '67?) and you seem to be blaming the entire Israeli population. Criticizing the Israeli government is one thing, but criticizing the Israeli people, is I think, anti-Semitic, since the sort of person who would self-identify as Israeli is almost certainly Jewish.

Perhaps you didn't intend to, but in my opinion that post crossed the line.

Fukk. I just wrote a giant post with my proposed Israel-Palestine boundary and a reply to some of the posters here, particularly Cory, who I think is being outright -- dare I say it? -- anti-Semitic, and Torie, who I usually agree with, who has some more reasonable concerns and with whom I also disagree.

Again.

Critizing the actions of the Israeli government isn't anti-semitism, just as critizing the actions of US government isn't anti-americanism.

Criticizing the actions of the American government isn't anti-Americanism, but criticizing the actions of the American people, which is also frequently done, is anti-Americanism.

[ag]

A "people" is an abstraction, and abstractions don't act.

[Cory]

A "people" is an abstraction, and abstractions don't act.

This. By saying "Israel", I was clearly referring to the Israeli governing apparatus. To suggest otherwise is frankly disingenuous.

[Vosem]

A "people" is an abstraction, and abstractions don't act.

Oh, yes they do. What is (for example) a lynch mob if not that exact abstraction proving that it is very much a real life phenomenon?

A "people" is an abstraction, and abstractions don't act.

This. By saying "Israel", I was clearly referring to the Israeli governing apparatus. To suggest otherwise is frankly disingenuous.

Alright, I'll accept this. I would like to apologize, Cory; I disagree with your political views, but it was dishonest to call you an anti-Semite, and I would like to take that back.