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Author Topic: Scottish Independence Referendum - 18 September 2014  (Read 25421 times)
Peter the Lefty
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« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2012, 10:50:25 pm »
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Just a thought - if Labour were still in power at Westminster, this situation would be....somewhat more interesting, wouldn't it?
Wow.  With Gordon Brown as PM...holy sh*t.  I guess they'd probably be a lot less likely to vote yes because of the chaos that would ensue if the Prime Minister of the UK was suddenly no longer a British citizen or a member of the British parliament, and Harriet Harperson would have to become acting PM.  Sheesh. 
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« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2012, 03:39:05 am »
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http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-independence-labour-dismisses-rebellion-1-2439472

"LABOUR chiefs say a rebellion among its grassroots members in favour of independence lacks “any real support” within party ranks.

A website has been launched called Labour for Independence, which is urging Scottish party leader Johann Lamont to allow members a vote on the constitutional question, with a view to shifting the party’s stance in favour of leaving the UK in the 2014 referendum.

Senior Labour figures say the website, launched by party member Allan Grogan, has attracted plentiful backing from SNP supporters. But the party
insists that members are free to bring policy suggestions before Labour conference."

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« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2012, 07:59:35 am »
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http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-independence-labour-dismisses-rebellion-1-2439472

"LABOUR chiefs say a rebellion among its grassroots members in favour of independence lacks “any real support” within party ranks.

A website has been launched called Labour for Independence, which is urging Scottish party leader Johann Lamont to allow members a vote on the constitutional question, with a view to shifting the party’s stance in favour of leaving the UK in the 2014 referendum.

Senior Labour figures say the website, launched by party member Allan Grogan, has attracted plentiful backing from SNP supporters. But the party
insists that members are free to bring policy suggestions before Labour conference."



Idiots.

Division and separation is so in line with democratic socialism. Roll Eyes
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Speaker Dereich
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« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2012, 10:18:16 am »
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Lets say Scotland achieves Independence: What would the political situation look like? Who would be the party of the right? What reason would the SNP still have for existing and would they or Labour be the main center-left party?
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« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2012, 01:29:28 pm »
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http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-independence-labour-dismisses-rebellion-1-2439472

"LABOUR chiefs say a rebellion among its grassroots members in favour of independence lacks “any real support” within party ranks.

A website has been launched called Labour for Independence, which is urging Scottish party leader Johann Lamont to allow members a vote on the constitutional question, with a view to shifting the party’s stance in favour of leaving the UK in the 2014 referendum.

Senior Labour figures say the website, launched by party member Allan Grogan, has attracted plentiful backing from SNP supporters. But the party
insists that members are free to bring policy suggestions before Labour conference."



Idiots.

Division and separation is so in line with democratic socialism. Roll Eyes

To be fair, I'd consider nationalism to be more compatible with democratic socialism than whole swathes of currently accepted views within the party; although obviously still ranking among them in the 'entirely wrong direction' section.
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« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2012, 02:21:05 pm »
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Lets say Scotland achieves Independence: What would the political situation look like? Who would be the (main) party of the right?
SNP, duh, just as today.
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« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2012, 08:25:14 pm »
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Today SNP usually considered left (social democratic) party.
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« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2012, 08:34:05 pm »
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Lets say Scotland achieves Independence: What would the political situation look like? Who would be the (main) party of the right?
SNP, duh, just as today.
I thought apart from the Independence parts on their platform they were social democrats.
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« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2012, 10:42:26 pm »
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To me, they are vaguely centrist, aiming a non-controversial government and aiming good management of the country.
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Peter the Lefty
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« Reply #59 on: July 31, 2012, 10:15:09 am »
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Lets say Scotland achieves Independence: What would the political situation look like? Who would be the party of the right? What reason would the SNP still have for existing and would they or Labour be the main center-left party?
Hmm...good question.  Seems to me like it may be like the pre-2011 Fianna Fail/Fine Gael situation in Ireland, where one dominant party has only some competition from an ideologically very similar party, with the SNP being like FF and Scottish Labour being like FG.  Labour might have to join forces with the Torries to beat the SNP. 
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« Reply #60 on: July 31, 2012, 12:18:50 pm »
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As a 'national' party I suppose that SNP would tend to occupy the central place of Scottish politics which doesn't mean necessarily a 'centrist' ideology. SNP is vaguely a center-left party with its main focus on Scottish independence and/or sovereignty, am I wrong?
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« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2012, 03:52:04 pm »
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Lets say Scotland achieves Independence: What would the political situation look like? Who would be the (main) party of the right?
SNP, duh, just as today.
I thought apart from the Independence parts on their platform they were social democrats.
Are we talking about platforms or voter bases? This is a psephology forum. The SNP is the major rightwing party in Scotland just like Labour is the major leftwing one.
It's true though that the right is fissured enough (over class and national identity issues) that it's hard to see the SNP ever swallowing up the entirety of the remaining Tory and LD vote, and that there are also very many people in Scotland who would not ever vote Tory or LD but may vote either SNP or Labour - and have been voting SNP in Scottish and Labour in Westminster elections of late, due in part to the state of Scottish Labour.
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Peter the Lefty
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« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2012, 01:32:24 pm »
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Wow, this is news.  I always got the impression that the SNP were left-of-Labour. 
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« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2012, 02:44:36 pm »
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Lets say Scotland achieves Independence: What would the political situation look like? Who would be the (main) party of the right?
SNP, duh, just as today.
I thought apart from the Independence parts on their platform they were social democrats.
Are we talking about platforms or voter bases? This is a psephology forum. The SNP is the major rightwing party in Scotland just like Labour is the major leftwing one.
It's true though that the right is fissured enough (over class and national identity issues) that it's hard to see the SNP ever swallowing up the entirety of the remaining Tory and LD vote, and that there are also very many people in Scotland who would not ever vote Tory or LD but may vote either SNP or Labour - and have been voting SNP in Scottish and Labour in Westminster elections of late, due in part to the state of Scottish Labour.

The SNP is right-wing?

Only in the sense that they hoover up many Tories and LibDems as the main non-Labour party, but no way are they right-wing.
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« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2012, 03:00:23 pm »
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New Labour's move rightwards to such an extent complicated everything (you have the same questions over the Liberal Democrats nationally), and allowed centrist/liberals to be seen as the left opposition.
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« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2012, 03:09:47 pm »
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Wow, this is news.  I always got the impression that the SNP were left-of-Labour.  
If you look at their actual policies on most issues, that is indeed the case.
Their voter base is however quite fragmented and in some regions like the North East they are mainly people who would otherwise vote Conservative ("Tartan Tories").
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« Reply #66 on: August 05, 2012, 03:15:41 pm »
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Wow, this is news.  I always got the impression that the SNP were left-of-Labour. 

As the main not-Labour party, some people which hate Labour vote for them, so that includes some right-wingers, even if that makes no sense ideologically.

You also have the right-wing and left-wing independantists which put that issue over policies (that's the core vote, in fact, logically).
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« Reply #67 on: August 05, 2012, 06:47:26 pm »
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It's worth noting that the SNP only got through 2007-2011 with the support (not quite confidence and supply, but close enough) of the Greens, the Tories and the LibDems...
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« Reply #68 on: August 06, 2012, 04:50:13 am »
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Wow, this is news.  I always got the impression that the SNP were left-of-Labour. 
New Labour's move rightwards to such an extent complicated everything (you have the same questions over the Liberal Democrats nationally), and allowed centrist/liberals to be seen as the left opposition.
Though only by privileged airheads* and - much more understandably - people focussing on Blair's disastrous foreign policy course. Which would naturally include a lot of foreign spectators.

*yeah, that's what I tend to think anybody so focussed on social liberalism issues as to completely ignore economics is. Not that Blair's economic course was actually leftist, of course, but the LDs certainly never overtook Labour on the left on that front. Smiley
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« Reply #69 on: August 06, 2012, 10:49:01 am »
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Wow, this is news.  I always got the impression that the SNP were left-of-Labour. 
New Labour's move rightwards to such an extent complicated everything (you have the same questions over the Liberal Democrats nationally), and allowed centrist/liberals to be seen as the left opposition.
Though only by privileged airheads* and - much more understandably - people focussing on Blair's disastrous foreign policy course. Which would naturally include a lot of foreign spectators.

*yeah, that's what I tend to think anybody so focussed on social liberalism issues as to completely ignore economics is. Not that Blair's economic course was actually leftist, of course, but the LDs certainly never overtook Labour on the left on that front. Smiley

Yes, 2005-2010 LibDems generally were students from Tory families who were too ashamed to realise they were rightists. Yes.
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« Reply #70 on: August 06, 2012, 03:08:42 pm »
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That sounds a little too indulgent in self-delusion, tbh. I'd sooner class students voting Liberal as those New Labour alienated, than Tories in disguise.

Wow, this is news.  I always got the impression that the SNP were left-of-Labour.  
New Labour's move rightwards to such an extent complicated everything (you have the same questions over the Liberal Democrats nationally), and allowed centrist/liberals to be seen as the left opposition.
Though only by privileged airheads* and - much more understandably - people focussing on Blair's disastrous foreign policy course. Which would naturally include a lot of foreign spectators.

*yeah, that's what I tend to think anybody so focussed on social liberalism issues as to completely ignore economics is. Not that Blair's economic course was actually leftist, of course, but the LDs certainly never overtook Labour on the left on that front. Smiley

Well when there's nothing immediately discernible on economics (New Labour after all, was just market-friendly social liberalism, with the claim to the latter becoming less credible as they went on) it then becomes about nothing other than social liberalism. After the first term (ie after they'd passed the minimum wage, and the Liberals had stopped opposing it) there was nothing there for leftists to decidedly vote Labour on* - however, there was plenty there to vote against. So choices of higher public spending became one of the Liberals matching Labour's, paid for with less PFI and no Iraq, and more recently choices of less cuts with Liberals matching Labour's plans but with a "mansion tax" and nuclear disarmament etc - ie you can vote for social liberalism and as much social democracy as Labour were proposing.  Especially when these were articulated by Charles Kennedy - far more of a convincing social democrat than Blair.  

It's the same with the SNP, people have seen them extend universal benefits (university, prescriptions) and dragging the other parties into supporting them, far more than they've seen them talk of the "Irish model", so it's not a case for either of them attracting voters from simply social liberalism. I'd be similarly denigrating if it were the case (despite being a social liberal myself, I've really grown to detest Liberals who'll champion a government for it even when they're slashing and burning - thankfully they're a minority)  .

*Can remember the 2001 general election coverage highlighted a few polls they'd commissioned showing Lib Dem voters more in favour of nationalisations and higher taxes for public spending than Labour voters.
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« Reply #71 on: August 06, 2012, 03:23:30 pm »
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That sounds a little too indulgent in self-delusion, tbh. I'd sooner class students voting Liberal as those New Labour alienated, than Tories in disguise.

I was mostly joking.
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« Reply #72 on: August 06, 2012, 03:44:31 pm »
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Objection withdrawn. Wink
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« Reply #73 on: August 07, 2012, 11:38:36 am »
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That sounds a little too indulgent in self-delusion, tbh. I'd sooner class students voting Liberal as those New Labour alienated, than Tories in disguise.

I was mostly joking.
It looks more a case of mistaking the terms "Middle Class" and "Tories". Typical British mistake. Tongue
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« Reply #74 on: August 07, 2012, 01:08:30 pm »
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I think the issue was more that was possible for middle class people with minority-left (trolling is fun!) views to convince themselves that the LibDems were to the left of the government, and that doing so was safe because it wasn't as though the Tories were going to win a majority, etc. Poking under the surface things always looked different; the LibDems didn't then (and don't now) really care about social policy (for example) beyond chucking a few sweeties around and making a series of very vague promises (which in practice meant a rather conservative stance), and were actually pretty enthusiastic about further economic deregulation (that great sage of our times and champion of manufacturing St. Vince of Cable was quite the advocate for abolishing what was then called the DTI. Which is interesting in retrospect). The record of LibDem-run local authorities was also strikingly conservative, and this at a time when local authorities had considerably more financial wriggle-room than at present.
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