Scottish Independence Referendum - 18 September 2014

[You kip if you want to...]

You don't even realise you are missing the point entirely, do you ? I'm talking about another Union. Think about it.

The EU? I'm in favour of it entirely, so are all three main political parties. If you are talking about the minority off-swing of UKIP and the opinion of the Murdoch press then I hardly think you have a point.

Ironic, given than UK is out of the Euro, out of Schengen...

Interesting, 10 other EU countries are also out of the Eurozone and it hasn't done the UK much harm though I am a Lib Dem and so am in favour of an eventual switch to the Euro at the right time, rather than rushing things which can lead to disaster. The UK is an island unlike other EU countries minus Ireland so the Schengen agreement isn't suitable to say the least.

The point is than you are saying than Scotland should "stop picking and choosing aspects of the Union that are favourable.", when UK is doing exactly the same with EU.

All member states are guilty of this, we're just better at it.

[Јas]

The UK is an island unlike other EU countries minus Ireland so the Schengen agreement isn't suitable to say the least.

Why does Britain's status as an island render it particularly unsuitable to be part of Schengen?


(Also, you may have missed my earlier question on central bank rules for EU applicant states - do please respond whenever you get a chance.)

[Zanas]

The UK is an island unlike other EU countries minus Ireland so the Schengen agreement isn't suitable to say the least.

For the record, Malta and Cyprus are also islands. And Malta is in Schengen. Iceland is also an island, in Schengen, while not being in the EU.

This has nothing to do with anything.

[THE_TITAN]

The UK is an island unlike other EU countries minus Ireland so the Schengen agreement isn't suitable to say the least.

For the record, Malta and Cyprus are also islands. And Malta is in Schengen. Iceland is also an island, in Schengen, while not being in the EU.

This has nothing to do with anything.

I think you are taking this thread off on a tangent. There is a clear difference between the UK's EU situation and Scottish Independence, most notably all the things you have talked about regarding UK/EU are opt-in scenarios. Scotland isn't opting in to anything, they are leaving the UK because they want to be independent. Picking and choosing when your leaving something is completely different to a situation where you have the choice to opt-in.

[ERvND]

Alex Salmond has finally found an answer to the currency question:

An independent Scotland will adopt Bitcoin as its currency.

[afleitch]

As you know I wear a big 'Yes' hat

However I can say there is deep, deep concern within the No camp right now; they aren't speaking to or briefing each other yet. And Yes haven't started spending their money. In the last few weeks when faces need to be there and messages need to be hammered home that may make a difference.

[Zanas]

I wear a similar, though probably smaller, hat : in my family we count how many countries each of us has set foot onto. This would bring me from 53 to 54 instantly, without effort !

[ChrisDR68]

My Scottish Independence referendum prediction:

Stay within the UK....................... 60%
Vote for Scottish independence... 40%

If this happens the Scots will likely get more devolved powers whether the Tories or Labour are in power or whether there's another coalition government after the 2015 election.

On the tangent discussion about the EU... I personally would be happy for the UK to stay in the EU as long as we obtain an opt out from any future European federal superstate (similar to the opt out of the Euro that John Major negotiated in 1991).

Not sure the European political class would find that acceptable though (especially the French) as the federal superstate idea is the eventual stated endgame of the EU according to the Treaty Of Rome.

[bore]

As you know I wear a big 'Yes' hat

However I can say there is deep, deep concern within the No camp right now; they aren't speaking to or briefing each other yet. And Yes haven't started spending their money. In the last few weeks when faces need to be there and messages need to be hammered home that may make a difference.

Yeah, Better Together are pretty shambolic.

This is obviously anecdotal, but of my friends, and I live in what you'd expect to be the unionist stronghold of Edinburgh, 14 "like" Yes Scotland, and 13 "like" Better Together. Also the pro independence people are far more vocal.

[EPG]

It helps that the campaign is one party that isn't in the national government versus everyone else. It's a lot easier to be consistent that way. If you had two nationalist parties each paying an equal contribution and asking for an equal share of airtime, you'd get more inconsistencies.

[MaxQue]

It helps that the campaign is one party that isn't in the national government versus everyone else. It's a lot easier to be consistent that way. If you had two nationalist parties each paying an equal contribution and asking for an equal share of airtime, you'd get more inconsistencies.

Many countries having referendums decided to force parties to create united groups for refereranda (in Quebec, they are called umbrella committees).

[afleitch]

It just keeps getting better;

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/08/scottish-independence-lord-robertson-uk-global-status

'Lord Robertson, the former defence secretary and Nato chief, has claimed that Scottish independence would have a "cataclysmic" effect on European and global stability by undermining the UK on the world stage...

A former secretary general of Nato, Robertson said the "loudest cheers" after a yes vote would come from the west's enemies and other "forces of darkness".

"What could possibly justify giving the dictators, the persecutors, the oppressors, the annexers, the aggressors and the adventurers across the planet the biggest pre-Christmas present of their lives by tearing the United Kingdom apart?" Robertson told the Brookings Institute on Monday.'

This is becoming increasingly unhinged.

[politicus]

It just keeps getting better;

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/08/scottish-independence-lord-robertson-uk-global-status

'Lord Robertson, the former defence secretary and Nato chief, has claimed that Scottish independence would have a "cataclysmic" effect on European and global stability by undermining the UK on the world stage...

A former secretary general of Nato, Robertson said the "loudest cheers" after a yes vote would come from the west's enemies and other "forces of darkness".

"What could possibly justify giving the dictators, the persecutors, the oppressors, the annexers, the aggressors and the adventurers across the planet the biggest pre-Christmas present of their lives by tearing the United Kingdom apart?" Robertson told the Brookings Institute on Monday.'

That's pretty delusional both regarding Britains importance in today's world and the consequences for Britains military and diplomatic strength of a Scottish secession.

[Zanas]

Tell me this news was published one week ago on April 1st ?

[EPG]

He's exaggerating, but not completely or objectively wrong. Even if the SNP were unambiguously committed to the western alliance, splitting NATO armies into smaller contingents weakens NATO by making the threat of collective action less credible, much as the UK's parliamentary vote forestalled collective action in Syria. He's correct that would have significant consequences for rUK and would weaken its self-confidence, as happened after the loss of India, as well as reducing its influence through smaller size. However, few of these arguments should matter for Scots who are not NATO enthusiasts, and the happiness of rUK isn't really the responsibility of Scots at all.

[afleitch]

ICM have it 52-48 no. Yes leads amongst those born in Scotland.

[bore]

ICM have it 52-48 no. Yes leads amongst those born in Scotland.

That's only among those who've decided, it's 42-39 with undecided's included. Either way, independence looks like a definite possibility now.

For those who are interested, here's the poll: http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/referendum-race-on-knife-edge-as-no-support-slides-1-3382125

[Lurker]

What would independence mean for the Scottish MPs in Westminister?

Would they still get to run in the 2015 election? And if so, would they get removed at the moment Scotland actually became an independent state?

[rob in cal]

   Sorry if this has been brought up before, but has there been much discussion about what Scottish independence would mean for the Labor Party in Westminster, if they lost a huge base of support and seats due to losing Scotland?

[JerryArkansas]

   Sorry if this has been brought up before, but has there been much discussion about what Scottish independence would mean for the Labor Party in Westminster, if they lost a huge base of support and seats due to losing Scotland?

There has been.  Labor would have to rethink it's election strategy if they want to win.  Losing Scotland will be to Labor what losing CA, OR, WA, and HI would be for the democrats here in America.

[windjammer]

The labor would lose 40 seats, the Lib/dem 10 seats. Not good at all...

[Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese]

   Sorry if this has been brought up before, but has there been much discussion about what Scottish independence would mean for the Labor Party in Westminster, if they lost a huge base of support and seats due to losing Scotland?

It has, and the answer is that Scotland has too few seats to make a difference except in the most close elections. It won't lead to eternal Torie dominance forever. The real Labour base is Northern England, so unless Manchester and Liverpool suddenly want to become independent, left-wing Englishmen have nothing to fear.  

In difference to what Jerry said , it's not really like losing the entire West coast. Scotland doesn't even hold 10% of the UK population... 

Sure it'll make it harder, but not that much harder.

[You kip if you want to...]

I think the post-war elections which would've had different results would be 1950, 1964, 1974 and 2010 (Tory maj).

[DC Al Fine]

ICM have it 52-48 no. Yes leads amongst those born in Scotland.

Money & the ethnic vote strikes again

[ObserverIE]

ICM have it 52-48 no. Yes leads amongst those born in Scotland.

Money & the ethnic vote strikes again

The SNP have enough wit not to go anywhere near that kind of stuff.