Scottish Independence Referendum - 18 September 2014

[EPG]

I think that's a bit optimistic from Labour's POV - who's really going to change their economic views, one way or the other, by a Yes vote? More to the point, economics would fall in importance as an issue if voters are more worried about negotiating with Scotland, and economic managment could become a strong point for the Conservatives rather than Labour if wages, employment and output continue to rise.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

In the event of a YES vote, why can't it be agreed that none of the parties run in Scotland and nominal SNP candidates will run in all constituencies unopposed under the proviso that they won't take their seats?

[afleitch]

A country of 5 million people is openly considering burning their bridges with their 300 year old union in no small part because they're not happy with (and have felt victimised by) the Conservative Party.

Which isn't the main reason why independence would happen. Removed from Holyrood that might be the perception but look how well that worked for Scottish Labour in 2011 The big problem for Labour is that they essentially run 'Better Together', at least they are the public face of it. They would quite easily, and quite rightly take on a great deal of the blame for things going wrong.

In the event of a YES vote, why can't it be agreed that none of the parties run in Scotland and nominal SNP candidates will run in all constituencies unopposed under the proviso that they won't take their seats?

That would make sense. I think it all depends on what 'body' is set up to deal with negotiations. If the Commons itself has little input then there's no need for strong Scottish representation there.

[Gary J]

I see no reason why Labour, Liberal Democrats or Conservatives in Scotland would just disappear, if there is a pro-independence majority in the referendum. All of them have and are likely to retain  representation in the Scottish Parliament.

In the longer run there might be a realignment on the centre-right of Scottish politics. Perhaps the Tories could dissolve the existing party and reform as the Scottish Party or some patriotic name like that. One of the Scottish Conservative leadership candidates a while back suggested that sort of approach.

[International Brotherhood of Bernard]

I'm on the fence with this - Can someone give me an unbiased list of pros and cons for Scottish independence?

[njwes]

I'm on the fence with this - Can someone give me an unbiased list of pros and cons for Scottish independence?

As New Jerseyans, should we have a definite opinion? ;p


Despite being sprawling and poorly organized the "Issues" list on the wiki is always a good place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014

[EPG]

Realistically, some or all of the SNP would end up as the centre-right party, as the Irish republican movement did in Ireland (though it ended up as two big parties and a bunch of small ones).

[njwes]

Realistically, some or all of the SNP would end up as the centre-right party, as the Irish republican movement did in Ireland (though it ended up as two big parties and a bunch of small ones).

Why's that? Is there a notable centre-right current in the SNP that's just "going along" with those in the party on the left until independence is achieved?

[You kip if you want to...]

Realistically, some or all of the SNP would end up as the centre-right party, as the Irish republican movement did in Ireland (though it ended up as two big parties and a bunch of small ones).

Why's that? Is there a notable centre-right current in the SNP that's just "going along" with those in the party on the left until independence is achieved?

SNP doctrine tends to have been quite hazy at times. They'll do what they have to in order to get independence.

They're not called the Tartan Tories for nothing.

[MaxQue]

Realistically, some or all of the SNP would end up as the centre-right party, as the Irish republican movement did in Ireland (though it ended up as two big parties and a bunch of small ones).

Why's that? Is there a notable centre-right current in the SNP that's just "going along" with those in the party on the left until independence is achieved?

SNP doctrine tends to have been quite hazy at times. They'll do what they have to in order to get independence.

They're not called the Tartan Tories for nothing.

Well, as many independentist government, they stand for "good government".

[njwes]

Realistically, some or all of the SNP would end up as the centre-right party, as the Irish republican movement did in Ireland (though it ended up as two big parties and a bunch of small ones).

Why's that? Is there a notable centre-right current in the SNP that's just "going along" with those in the party on the left until independence is achieved?

SNP doctrine tends to have been quite hazy at times. They'll do what they have to in order to get independence.

They're not called the Tartan Tories for nothing.

Gotcha. Well then, to take it a bit further: if Scotland does achieve independence, why should we expect the party to stay together as a large political force at all (given a few years)? Its raison d'être is to achieve Scottish independence; with that gone, with nothing to glue together the various factions, couldn't we expect the SNP to dissolve? Leftist SNP voters go to Scottish Labour or Scottish Socialists, conservatives go to Scottish Cons, liberals to Scottish Lib-Dem, and so on.

Obviously that's not at all what happened in Ireland, and I'm not familiar with the history there, but I'd imagine the circumstances are so different that any predictions of the SNP's future based on Fianna Fáil's history would be problematic.

[MaxQue]

Realistically, some or all of the SNP would end up as the centre-right party, as the Irish republican movement did in Ireland (though it ended up as two big parties and a bunch of small ones).

Why's that? Is there a notable centre-right current in the SNP that's just "going along" with those in the party on the left until independence is achieved?

SNP doctrine tends to have been quite hazy at times. They'll do what they have to in order to get independence.

They're not called the Tartan Tories for nothing.

Gotcha. Well then, to take it a bit further: if Scotland does achieve independence, why should we expect the party to stay together as a large political force at all (given a few years)? Its raison d'être is to achieve Scottish independence; with that gone, with nothing to glue together the various factions, couldn't we expect the SNP to dissolve? Leftist SNP voters go to Scottish Labour or Scottish Socialists, conservatives go to Scottish Cons, liberals to Scottish Lib-Dem, and so on.

Obviously that's not at all what happened in Ireland, and I'm not familiar with the history there, but I'd imagine the circumstances are so different that any predictions of the SNP's future based on Fianna Fáil's history would be problematic.

I suppose than Liberal Democrats and Conservatives could rename themselves. Usually, independence is followed by a realignment of political parties.

[afleitch]

Realistically, some or all of the SNP would end up as the centre-right party, as the Irish republican movement did in Ireland (though it ended up as two big parties and a bunch of small ones).

Why's that? Is there a notable centre-right current in the SNP that's just "going along" with those in the party on the left until independence is achieved?

SNP doctrine tends to have been quite hazy at times. They'll do what they have to in order to get independence.

They're not called the Tartan Tories for nothing.

They haven't been called the Tartan Tories with any degree of accuracy since 1979. Given that philosophically the party did a 180 on their economic views (and on Europe in particular) in part due to the '79 Group's later ascendency in the early 90's, it's not an accurate description. You could, at best make a comparison to the SNP's governance and electoral performance to the Canadian Liberals from the 90's to the mid 00's.

[Gary J]

Quote from njwes

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The history is indeed different. The SNP has always been a non-violent party. The Irish political system emerged from a War of Independence and a subsequent Civil War between the pro and anti treaty wings of the independence movement. Fianna Fáil were the part of the anti treaty side in the Civil War which, a few years later, took their seats in the democratic legislature of the 26 county state. 

Vote as you shot will not be the principle around which the Scottish political system will be organised.

[Хahar 🤔]

Ideologically, how does the SNP today compare to CiU in Catalonia?

[Citizen Hats]

Quote from njwes

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The history is indeed different. The SNP has always been a non-violent party. The Irish political system emerged from a War of Independence and a subsequent Civil War between the pro and anti treaty wings of the independence movement. Fianna Fáil were the part of the anti treaty side in the Civil War which, a few years later, took their seats in the democratic legislature of the 26 county state. 

Vote as you shot will not be the principle around which the Scottish political system will be organised.

Just look at the conservative Country folk who make up a lot of the base of the Parti Quebecois for a counter example. The PQ might be officially socialist, but it plays to those voters through cultural conservatism

[MaxQue]

Quote from njwes

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The history is indeed different. The SNP has always been a non-violent party. The Irish political system emerged from a War of Independence and a subsequent Civil War between the pro and anti treaty wings of the independence movement. Fianna Fáil were the part of the anti treaty side in the Civil War which, a few years later, took their seats in the democratic legislature of the 26 county state. 

Vote as you shot will not be the principle around which the Scottish political system will be organised.

Just look at the conservative Country folk who make up a lot of the base of the Parti Quebecois for a counter example. The PQ might be officially socialist, but it plays to those voters through cultural conservatism

1. The PQ isn't officially socialist and isn't socialist since the 90's, at least.
2. Rural =/ conservative, in Quebec. True in some areas, but false in some. (Northern Quebec rural areas are very similar to Northern Ontario rural areas, same for the urban areas).

[njwes]

Quote from njwes

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The history is indeed different. The SNP has always been a non-violent party. The Irish political system emerged from a War of Independence and a subsequent Civil War between the pro and anti treaty wings of the independence movement. Fianna Fáil were the part of the anti treaty side in the Civil War which, a few years later, took their seats in the democratic legislature of the 26 county state. 

Vote as you shot will not be the principle around which the Scottish political system will be organised.

Just look at the conservative Country folk who make up a lot of the base of the Parti Quebecois for a counter example. The PQ might be officially socialist, but it plays to those voters through cultural conservatism

I'm don't see any contradiction between being socialist and socially conservative though; some might just call them populist.

So, what are the political leanings of rural Scots? Lib Dems seem to have done well the last couple decades in those areas.

[joevsimp]

Since Salmond is such a an of all things Nordic, I wouldn't be surprised if the SNP morphed into something like the Centre Parties over in Scandinavia, probably mop up some of the independent voters at local level in the Highlands (or at least attempt to) and gain some members from the conservatives and libdems (although there'd probably be a few going the other way as well, as well as to Labour and whatever various Socialist parties is most credible

[afleitch]

The Sunday Herald has come out in favour of Yes. It's the only national newspaper to do so.

[Tieteobserver]

I believe every population has a right to self-determination. Its a very supreme value for me. Non-negotiable, really. Therefore, if the Scots wish to break from their Union, they should have this right.

They certainly have loads of reasons. Whilst America, Canada and Australia adopted federal forms of government, with relatively little power in Washington, Ottawa and Canberra, most of it being concentrated on their states/provinces, the UK apparently was resistant upon following this path. Instead of allowing Scottish, Welsh and Irish folks to govern themselves, London has, for these last 3 centuries, held quite a huge of a lock upon power. Only recently the Scottish Parliament was opened and given some degree of autonomy. Had the UK federalised long ago, and I bet even Ireland wouldn't have seceded. London chose the wrong path.

That DOES NOT, however, justify the current movement on the part of the Scots. Scotland has a relatively old population, has a reputation for unhealthy citizens, and SNP, from all accounts, is visibly a populist left-wing party. I don't see Scotland well managed in their hands. They will conquer freedom from London, thats true. But I doubt Scotland will be able to be an independent successful nation at least for a while.

Besides, I love the Union Jack. But if I was English, I very certainly would vomit upon the quickest glance at this:

[afleitch]

That DOES NOT, however, justify the current movement on the part of the Scots. Scotland has a relatively old population, has a reputation for unhealthy citizens, and SNP, from all accounts, is visibly a populist left-wing party. I don't see Scotland well managed in their hands. They will conquer freedom from London, thats true. But I doubt Scotland will be able to be an independent successful nation at least for a while.

Besides, I love the Union Jack. But if I was English, I very certainly would vomit upon the quickest glance at this:

No.

[Hatman 🍁]

The red X would be thicker, as it's currently being shared with the white cross of St. Andrew's. Remove that and the cross of St. Patrick becomes wider., and the flag would be more aesthetically pleasing than the one you have displayed.

[afleitch]

The Sunday Herald has come out in favour of Yes. It's the only national newspaper to do so.

The news from the ground (and my attempts at obtaining a copy from 20+ shops), the paper has sold out of copies.

[Cassius]

Will we have to change our flag if Scotland does become independent? I mean, there are plenty of flags still in use that have lost some of their meaning (like the French tricolour, as the white, which used to be the colour of the monarchy, is now pretty redundant).