Scottish Independence Referendum - 18 September 2014

[Leftbehind]

Well neither is the Tory party as strong as it used to be. It's done wonders in alienating itself in the North and Wales, and the Tories weren't anywhere near as divisive in the past as they are now.

I don't think it's all that relevant comparing the weakening of European social democrats, as most aren't in a FPTP system like the UK, and they can vote elsewhere without knowing they'll be letting the Tories in.

I don't accept the 'Tory England / Labour move Right/Blairite to win there' argument, received wisdom at its worst.

[Leftbehind]

Wait, Scotland becomes independent and we're still lumped with their exported Tories? FFS.

[Leftbehind]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-independence-labour-dismisses-rebellion-1-2439472

"LABOUR chiefs say a rebellion among its grassroots members in favour of independence lacks “any real support” within party ranks.

A website has been launched called Labour for Independence, which is urging Scottish party leader Johann Lamont to allow members a vote on the constitutional question, with a view to shifting the party’s stance in favour of leaving the UK in the 2014 referendum.

Senior Labour figures say the website, launched by party member Allan Grogan, has attracted plentiful backing from SNP supporters. But the party
insists that members are free to bring policy suggestions before Labour conference."

Idiots.

Division and separation is so in line with democratic socialism.

To be fair, I'd consider nationalism to be more compatible with democratic socialism than whole swathes of currently accepted views within the party; although obviously still ranking among them in the 'entirely wrong direction' section.

[Leftbehind]

New Labour's move rightwards to such an extent complicated everything (you have the same questions over the Liberal Democrats nationally), and allowed centrist/liberals to be seen as the left opposition.

[Leftbehind]

That sounds a little too indulgent in self-delusion, tbh. I'd sooner class students voting Liberal as those New Labour alienated, than Tories in disguise.

Wow, this is news.  I always got the impression that the SNP were left-of-Labour.  

New Labour's move rightwards to such an extent complicated everything (you have the same questions over the Liberal Democrats nationally), and allowed centrist/liberals to be seen as the left opposition.

Though only by privileged airheads* and - much more understandably - people focussing on Blair's disastrous foreign policy course. Which would naturally include a lot of foreign spectators.

*yeah, that's what I tend to think anybody so focussed on social liberalism issues as to completely ignore economics is. Not that Blair's economic course was actually leftist, of course, but the LDs certainly never overtook Labour on the left on that front.

Well when there's nothing immediately discernible on economics (New Labour after all, was just market-friendly social liberalism, with the claim to the latter becoming less credible as they went on) it then becomes about nothing other than social liberalism. After the first term (ie after they'd passed the minimum wage, and the Liberals had stopped opposing it) there was nothing there for leftists to decidedly vote Labour on* - however, there was plenty there to vote against. So choices of higher public spending became one of the Liberals matching Labour's, paid for with less PFI and no Iraq, and more recently choices of less cuts with Liberals matching Labour's plans but with a "mansion tax" and nuclear disarmament etc - ie you can vote for social liberalism and as much social democracy as Labour were proposing.  Especially when these were articulated by Charles Kennedy - far more of a convincing social democrat than Blair.  

It's the same with the SNP, people have seen them extend universal benefits (university, prescriptions) and dragging the other parties into supporting them, far more than they've seen them talk of the "Irish model", so it's not a case for either of them attracting voters from simply social liberalism. I'd be similarly denigrating if it were the case (despite being a social liberal myself, I've really grown to detest Liberals who'll champion a government for it even when they're slashing and burning - thankfully they're a minority)  .

*Can remember the 2001 general election coverage highlighted a few polls they'd commissioned showing Lib Dem voters more in favour of nationalisations and higher taxes for public spending than Labour voters.

[Leftbehind]

Objection withdrawn.

[Leftbehind]

Not much of a concession! The only winnable option for his party, and it's certainly a win (more control, but without having to fart around with the ins and outs of the implications of independence) and I've no doubt they'll get it. Even if they didn't, the SNP aren't going anywhere whilst the main three unionist parties try and outdo each other in who can offer the most repelling platform (it's absolutely stunning to see Lamont's "solution" to Labour's fortunes).

[Leftbehind]

Interesting that there's no devo-max option; I felt sure there would be. Can't help but think the nationalists have no chance on a straight independence question.

[Leftbehind]

Alongside a united Ireland, presumably.