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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: Anti-Conscription Amendment (Failed)  (Read 3041 times)
Senator Polnut
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« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2012, 09:50:47 pm »
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We agree Yankee...

But I'm concerned this is going to turn into another slanging match... when this came up during my time as a Senator, I strongly opposed this, then decided it should be decided by the people, but I would campaign against it.

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« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2012, 09:51:51 pm »
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NC Yankee and SJoycleFla explained better then I ever could what is wrong with this proposal...
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Sbane
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« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2012, 12:35:35 pm »
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I agree that we need conscription on the books but need to restrict its use somehow. I think having 3/4ths of the Senators agree to it is a good way of doing that.
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« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2012, 02:07:18 pm »
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Introducing this Amendment

Quote
Article VI, Section VIII of The Atlasian Constitution is amended to read:
Neither shall the Republic of Atlasia nor any of its constituent regions enforce compulsory conscription upon any citizen unless 3/4 of the Senate agrees.
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"Now let me be clear...I...I...um...uh...now let me be clear.  I strongly condemn the affirmative in the strongest possible terms, and I am closely monitoring their arguments.  Let me be clear on this."
SJoyce
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« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2012, 02:43:21 pm »
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Introducing this Amendment

Quote
Article VI, Section VIII of The Atlasian Constitution is amended to read:
Neither shall the Republic of Atlasia nor any of its constituent regions enforce compulsory conscription upon any citizen unless 3/4 of the Senate agrees.

The DoEA finds this much more acceptable than the original.
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2012, 06:23:06 pm »
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Quote from: Amendment 49:18 by Ben
Article VI, Section VIII of The Atlasian Constitution is amended to read:
Neither shall the Republic of Atlasia nor any of its constituent regions enforce compulsory conscription upon any citizen unless 3/4 of the Senate agrees.

Sponsor Feedback: Invalid Search Criteria
Status: Uncertain
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2012, 06:59:10 pm »
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WORMYGUY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2012, 07:52:32 pm »
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Unfriendly.
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wormyguy
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« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2012, 08:05:54 pm »
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Frankly, the requirement that citizens be forced against their will to risk their lives on behalf of their government is the most extreme form of oppression possible short of simply rounding them up and having them tortured or killed.  There is absolutely no significant force anywhere in the world desirous of having Atlasians rounded up and tortured and killed.  There is no country in the world even theoretically capable of invading Atlasia, and there is no country in the world that would want to or have anything to gain from initiating hostilities with Atlasia even if they were evenly matched.  Furthermore, if there were a country both hostile to and evenly matched with Atlasia, such a conflict would immediately go nuclear, rendering conventional forces pointless.  Drafts have no purpose other than misuse, as they always have in Atlasia beginning with their inception in the Civil War.*

It's permitting a truly extreme form of oppression almost unheard of in the broad scheme of human history for a possibility not only remote but in fact non-existent and with no possibility of ever coming to pass in this nuclear age.  It is the very definition of insanity to maintain this as government policy.

*Where the draft was used as a tool of quite literally killing off the opposition; enforced at four times the rate in Democratic New York City as in Republican Massachusetts, while wealthy people could purchase exemptions first for $300 and later by hiring someone else to take their place, and where desertion was punished by death, with at least 50,000 executed for that reason.
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SJoyce
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« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2012, 08:15:02 pm »
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Frankly, the requirement that citizens be forced against their will to risk their lives on behalf of their government is the most extreme form of oppression possible short of simply rounding them up and having them tortured or killed.  There is absolutely no significant force anywhere in the world desirous of having Atlasians rounded up and tortured and killed.  There is no country in the world even theoretically capable of invading Atlasia, and there is no country in the world that would want to or have anything to gain from initiating hostilities with Atlasia even if they were evenly matched.  Furthermore, if there were a country both hostile to and evenly matched with Atlasia, such a conflict would immediately go nuclear, rendering conventional forces pointless.  Drafts have no purpose other than misuse, as they always have in Atlasia beginning with their inception in the Civil War.*

It's permitting a truly extreme form of oppression almost unheard of in the broad scheme of human history for a possibility not only remote but in fact non-existent and with no possibility of ever coming to pass in this nuclear age.  It is the very definition of insanity to maintain this as government policy.

*Where the draft was used as a tool of quite literally killing off the opposition; enforced at four times the rate in Democratic New York City as in Republican Massachusetts, while wealthy people could purchase exemptions first for $300 and later by hiring someone else to take their place, and where desertion was punished by death, with at least 50,000 executed for that reason.

I'd appreciate you detailing a scenario in which the government finds it necessary to initiate conscription and gets 3/4 of the Senate to agree...
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« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2012, 08:18:44 pm »
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Frankly, Wormy, I don't see a good argument as to why we cannot have the draft on the books, given the ancient "better safe than sorry" principle.

I urge the Senate to pass my Amendment.
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Senator Polnut
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« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2012, 08:31:09 pm »
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The White House would certainly be more comfortable with Senator Ben's proposal.
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2012, 08:34:11 pm »
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Quote from: Amendment 49:18 by Ben
Article VI, Section VIII of The Atlasian Constitution is amended to read:
Neither shall the Republic of Atlasia nor any of its constituent regions enforce compulsory conscription upon any citizen unless 3/4 of the Senate agrees.

Sponsor Feedback: Hostile
Status: Vote Pending

Senators, the above amendment is now at vote, so please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.
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Scott
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« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2012, 08:36:40 pm »
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Nay.
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« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2012, 08:41:40 pm »
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Aye
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #65 on: May 30, 2012, 08:47:10 pm »
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Grin Yup
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« Reply #66 on: May 30, 2012, 08:47:33 pm »
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Frankly, the requirement that citizens be forced against their will to risk their lives on behalf of their government is the most extreme form of oppression possible short of simply rounding them up and having them tortured or killed.  There is absolutely no significant force anywhere in the world desirous of having Atlasians rounded up and tortured and killed.  There is no country in the world even theoretically capable of invading Atlasia, and there is no country in the world that would want to or have anything to gain from initiating hostilities with Atlasia even if they were evenly matched.  Furthermore, if there were a country both hostile to and evenly matched with Atlasia, such a conflict would immediately go nuclear, rendering conventional forces pointless.  Drafts have no purpose other than misuse, as they always have in Atlasia beginning with their inception in the Civil War.*

It's permitting a truly extreme form of oppression almost unheard of in the broad scheme of human history for a possibility not only remote but in fact non-existent and with no possibility of ever coming to pass in this nuclear age.  It is the very definition of insanity to maintain this as government policy.

*Where the draft was used as a tool of quite literally killing off the opposition; enforced at four times the rate in Democratic New York City as in Republican Massachusetts, while wealthy people could purchase exemptions first for $300 and later by hiring someone else to take their place, and where desertion was punished by death, with at least 50,000 executed for that reason.

I'd appreciate you detailing a scenario in which the government finds it necessary to initiate conscription and gets 3/4 of the Senate to agree...

In 1964 President Lyndon Johnson went on television and outright lied to the Atlasian people in order to have his pointless war of aggression including massive conscription to fight it approved, and it was, by a vote of 416 in favor to 0 opposed in the old House of Representatives.  It's more a question of what wouldn't our sainted elected officials agree to if it were proposed by the presidential administration under the guise of "defending freedom."
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wormyguy
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« Reply #67 on: May 30, 2012, 08:48:15 pm »
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And Nay.
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Sbane
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« Reply #68 on: May 30, 2012, 10:17:33 pm »
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Aye
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Governor TJ
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« Reply #69 on: May 30, 2012, 10:18:09 pm »
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Aye
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President John Hay
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« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2012, 12:19:15 pm »
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Aye
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LastVoter
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« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2012, 06:17:47 pm »
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Introducing this Amendment

Quote
Article VI, Section VIII of The Atlasian Constitution is amended to read:
Neither shall the Republic of Atlasia nor any of its constituent regions enforce compulsory conscription upon any citizen unless 3/4 of the Senate agrees.
Nay, Senate is not representative of the people, IRV can elect enough moderate heroes that will vote for this, especially during a war.
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LastVoter
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« Reply #72 on: May 31, 2012, 06:24:46 pm »
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Let's try this Amendment


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Article VI, Section VIII of The Atlasian Constitution is amended to read:
Neither shall the Republic of Atlasia nor any of its constituent regions enforce compulsory conscription upon any citizen unless one of Atlasian States has been directly attacked.
I think this would be a better amendment, anything can be declared an Ally or a territory, but it's harder to admit imperialist adventures into a state.
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Senator Polnut
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« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2012, 06:32:06 pm »
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A possible suggestion, similar to the amendments TJ and I wrote up when this thing emerged before was to place strict conditions
a) that it could only happen if the Atlasian homeland was attacked
b) that there were exclusions for single-parent households, students, existing emergency workers and other essential service workers

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Governor TJ
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« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2012, 11:47:52 pm »
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A possible suggestion, similar to the amendments TJ and I wrote up when this thing emerged before was to place strict conditions
a) that it could only happen if the Atlasian homeland was attacked
b) that there were exclusions for single-parent households, students, existing emergency workers and other essential service workers


We could pull that language back out of the trash can if this fails and maybe the senate is more open to compromise than it was four months ago. I still think that language could be problematic in some cases, like World War II for instance, and prefer Ben's Amendment since it allows greater flexibility for any situation that might arise. I, of course, am still open to my language Tongue
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