Please Point Out

[Josh]

For the record, I'm fine with discussing that event as an isolated event.  I'm really getting tired of the "all AFDNC members commit voter fraud" line, however.  I would like to think that we, as mature citizens, are above asserting a Hasty Generalization fallacy over and over without regards to its falsity.

Thank you.  I'm not against discussing it, but I don't think theres a point to making silly accusations and assumptions, that aren't getting anywhere.

[Keystone Phil]

For the record, I'm fine with discussing that event as an isolated event.  I'm really getting tired of the "all AFDNC members commit voter fraud" line, however.  I would like to think that we, as mature citizens, are above asserting a Hasty Generalization fallacy over and over without regards to its falsity.

Thank you.  I'm not against discussing it, but I don't think theres a point to making silly accusations and assumptions, that aren't getting anywhere.

Are you aware that some thought connecting GirlGoneWild and IrishDem was "silly" too?

[Gabu]

For the record, I'm fine with discussing that event as an isolated event.  I'm really getting tired of the "all AFDNC members commit voter fraud" line, however.  I would like to think that we, as mature citizens, are above asserting a Hasty Generalization fallacy over and over without regards to its falsity.

Thank you.  I'm not against discussing it, but I don't think theres a point to making silly accusations and assumptions, that aren't getting anywhere.

Are you aware that some thought connecting GirlGoneWild and IrishDem was "silly" too?

Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?  I'm sorry if this sounds overly partisan, but this topic has become more a line used against Democrats when all else fails than any actual sort of investigation.  Whether you want to admit it or not, this much is true.  It's become a running joke now that the Democrats are the party of voter fraud, and I'm getting sick of it.  While you may not be one of those making these jokes, it's plain to see that stuff like what you're saying above is not clearing the air.  It's not exactly conducive to unity and mutual trust to continually level accusations and then act as if disbelievers are stupid for suggesting that the accusations might not be true.  To act as if these actions are benefitting Atlasia is naive at best and downright disingenuous at worse.

If you want to investigate, fine.  If you want to get to the bottom of this, whatever "this" might be, be my guest.  I fully agree that if there is something to this, we should find out what it is and be done with it.  All I ask is that we please revert this GirlGoneWild incident into what you say it is - an investigation - instead of an attack that can be repeated whenever necessary against the Democrats, which is what it currently is.  We're not getting anywhere as it is right now.

The fact of the matter is that the biggest threat to democracy in Atlasia, by far, is too much partisanship, not voter fraud.  Everyone knows that, whether they want to admit it or not.  Even if it does turn up that Red Button was IrishDemocrat or whatever, the benefit that will come about as a result from that will likely be far outweighed by the rampant negativity and mutual distrust that will be produced by the current means being employed to get there.  What is currently being done about this is not saving Atlasia; rather, it's making the situation worse.  I don't mind if you want to investigate this matter; what my problem is with is the methods being used to do so.

[Nym90]

Alcaeus (DE) - Last active Dec 7th; Last post on Nov 11th. Last 15 were non-fantasy and date back to 31st Oct. I personally don't remember him whatsoever.

Cashcow (DE) - He's active elsewhere, but I can't say I remember him doing anything in here.

Since I am here, is Danwxman (PA) really a Dem considering he has blue avatar? Sort of turns the whole avatar voting thing on its head. He's not particularly active here either.

Doug D Wise (MT) - Originally a Republican, then to Democrat, again, rather strange. Last active Dec 4th. Did do things when here.

EarlAW (NY) - Activish on the forum; His only contribution to fantasy politics was to register on Nov 28th.

English (MN) - Last post was Dec. 3rd. Again I think his sole contribution was to register. He was active on the rest of the forum it has to be said. Lacks an avatar declaration.

Ethelberth (ME) - Lacks an avatar declaration. His sole acts have to been to register and vote.

Julien (PA) - Has made 4 posts to the fantasy forum, the last of which was to vote.

Kevinstat (ME) - Last act was to vote in the October elections. Is sorta active.

nclib (NC) - I'm not willing to traul through 1622 posts to find when he was last active here, but I know from memory it wasn't recently.

phknrocket1k (CA) - he's a opeboesque troll anyway; Don't remember when he last did anything in here; Too many posts to bother to check.

which brings me to Opebo (MO) - is a troll and underwent some strange conversion in Thailand from all accounts. Why has he re-registered anyway? Its not like he's active here.

Red Button (NY) - his lack of posts has so amused me, I'm linking them. Last active Nov 27th, which was in itself the act of registration. A grand total of 22 posts accumulated in the astounding time frame of 52 minutes.

Reignman (WA) - Last active Dec 24th. Dating back to mid-October he never did anything here.

Romeomustdie (NY) - Last active Dec 21st. Not horribly active before that here, though he did vote in both October and December elections.

Smash255 (NY) - Active elsewhere. I have no memory of this guy being in fantasy politics.

tkwrinklefiber (CA) - Last active Nov 12th. Sole contribution was registration.

Thats about 15 inactive voters out of 35 Democratic members. Obviously there are a few more since that was last updated; I'll randomly guess you have about 45 members now. A third of your voters are inactive in fantasy politics, if not complete deadwood altogether.

It's worth noting that a lot of these people didn't vote last December, so a lot less than 1/3 of the total Democratic votes were coming from people on this list.

I also see no problem at all with people voting if they are active in other parts of the Forum.

Regardless, we do have a law in place that says that someone is purged from the registered voter list if they don't vote in 2 consecutive elections. I think that is a good rule, and should remain in place.

I would hardly say that this "proves the AFDNC wrong", as it was being asserted that the AFDNC relied on inactive voters in order to win, and that this was our only advantage. As if the party would be just totally dead and would win nothing at all if it wasn't for these folks. I never said that we had no inactive voters at all, just that it's a lot less than what has apparently become an article of faith for some.

[Nym90]

If there is any suspicion about Red Button, I would assume that his IP address can be checked by Dave Leip.

[TheBulldog]

I have changed my mind.  The playing field isnt level for the parties of Atlasia.  If the republicans change their name, I will support the Democrats changing their name.

[Colin]

And now, the same thing for the Republicans...

Very Well.

9iron (MI) - Active elsewhere; Can't remember when he last did something in here.

AuH2O (VA) - Active elsewhere; Can't remember when he last did something in here.

Chiahead (PA) - Last fantasy post Dec 12th; Barely active elsewhere.

Dazzleman (CT) - Active elsewhere; Can't remember when he last did something in here.

Erc (NY) - Active elsewhere; Can't remember when he last did something in here.

JJ (PA) - Whilst being a brilliant, active poster elsewhere, he is inactive in here.

Lester Maddox (GA) - Last active Dec 20th; Only a few posts when he was here (grand total of 36)

Moorein08 (ID) - Last active Dec 11th; Only a few posts when he was here (grand total of 21)

Mr Fresh (ID) - Was this guy resurrected simply to vote? I think so.

ncjake (FL) - Last active Oct 29th; Sole fantasy contribution was to register.

NHPolitico (NH) - Rather inactive since the beginning of December; Its been a while since he was active here.

Rococo04 (OH) - Last post on Dec 14th; Personally, I don't remember this guy that much.

Sulfur (NH) - Last 2 posts: Jan 8th, Nov 17th; Was actually active here when he was posting.

Wiseguy (FL) - Total of 7 fantasy posts since registering on Dec 14th, though not very active elsewhere.

Thats 9 totally inactive out of 27 registered Republicans. There's probably about the same number right now since MHS2002 and CheeseWhiz have moved to other parties, and the Republicans probably have picked up a few registrants.

So, here's my conclusion:

The two major parties translating into Atlasia will have a third of its membership that is deadwood.

At the convention at the end of the month I will call upon the AFRNC to vote to expell these inactive party members from the AFRNC and I call on the AFDNC to do the same. If these "deadwood" members feel the need to return to fantasy politics than they may re-register but until then they should not be a part of a fantasy party.

[Akno21]

And now, the same thing for the Republicans...

Very Well.

9iron (MI) - Active elsewhere; Can't remember when he last did something in here.

AuH2O (VA) - Active elsewhere; Can't remember when he last did something in here.

Chiahead (PA) - Last fantasy post Dec 12th; Barely active elsewhere.

Dazzleman (CT) - Active elsewhere; Can't remember when he last did something in here.

Erc (NY) - Active elsewhere; Can't remember when he last did something in here.

JJ (PA) - Whilst being a brilliant, active poster elsewhere, he is inactive in here.

Lester Maddox (GA) - Last active Dec 20th; Only a few posts when he was here (grand total of 36)

Moorein08 (ID) - Last active Dec 11th; Only a few posts when he was here (grand total of 21)

Mr Fresh (ID) - Was this guy resurrected simply to vote? I think so.

ncjake (FL) - Last active Oct 29th; Sole fantasy contribution was to register.

NHPolitico (NH) - Rather inactive since the beginning of December; Its been a while since he was active here.

Rococo04 (OH) - Last post on Dec 14th; Personally, I don't remember this guy that much.

Sulfur (NH) - Last 2 posts: Jan 8th, Nov 17th; Was actually active here when he was posting.

Wiseguy (FL) - Total of 7 fantasy posts since registering on Dec 14th, though not very active elsewhere.

Thats 9 totally inactive out of 27 registered Republicans. There's probably about the same number right now since MHS2002 and CheeseWhiz have moved to other parties, and the Republicans probably have picked up a few registrants.

So, here's my conclusion:

The two major parties translating into Atlasia will have a third of its membership that is deadwood.

At the convention at the end of the month I will call upon the AFRNC to vote to expell these inactive party members from the AFRNC and I call on the AFDNC to do the same. If these "deadwood" members feel the need to return to fantasy politics than they may re-register but until then they should not be a part of a fantasy party.

Geez. We don't need to be burning inactive people at the stake Colin, do we?

I wouldn't mind that when we have the new constitution, it changes the elimination from the voter rolls to one election missed, and not 2.

[Colin]

Geez. We don't need to be burning inactive people at the stake Colin, do we?

I wouldn't mind that when we have the new constitution, it changes the elimination from the voter rolls to one election missed, and not 2.

I never said anything about burning them on the stake but wouldn't you rather see discussion like this ended? If we expel these people from our respective parties we wouldn't have to hear everyone complain that we have all these pocket votes, or "deadwood" voters, or inactives, in our parties.

[Akno21]

Geez. We don't need to be burning inactive people at the stake Colin, do we?

I wouldn't mind that when we have the new constitution, it changes the elimination from the voter rolls to one election missed, and not 2.

I never said anything about burning them on the stake but wouldn't you rather see discussion like this ended? If we expel these people from our respective parties we wouldn't have to hear everyone complain that we have all these pocket votes, or "deadwood" voters, or inactives, in our parties.

It was an expression.

Once voters are off the rolls, they are out the the parties, and I support changing the number of missed elections to be off the rolls to 1, instead of 2.

[Colin]

Geez. We don't need to be burning inactive people at the stake Colin, do we?

I wouldn't mind that when we have the new constitution, it changes the elimination from the voter rolls to one election missed, and not 2.

I never said anything about burning them on the stake but wouldn't you rather see discussion like this ended? If we expel these people from our respective parties we wouldn't have to hear everyone complain that we have all these pocket votes, or "deadwood" voters, or inactives, in our parties.

It was an expression.

Once voters are off the rolls, they are out the the parties, and I support changing the number of missed elections to be off the rolls to 1, instead of 2.

That sounds like a good idea.

[Keystone Phil]

And now, the same thing for the Republicans...

Very Well.

9iron (MI) - Active elsewhere; Can't remember when he last did something in here.

AuH2O (VA) - Active elsewhere; Can't remember when he last did something in here.

Chiahead (PA) - Last fantasy post Dec 12th; Barely active elsewhere.

Dazzleman (CT) - Active elsewhere; Can't remember when he last did something in here.

Erc (NY) - Active elsewhere; Can't remember when he last did something in here.

JJ (PA) - Whilst being a brilliant, active poster elsewhere, he is inactive in here.

Lester Maddox (GA) - Last active Dec 20th; Only a few posts when he was here (grand total of 36)

Moorein08 (ID) - Last active Dec 11th; Only a few posts when he was here (grand total of 21)

Mr Fresh (ID) - Was this guy resurrected simply to vote? I think so.

ncjake (FL) - Last active Oct 29th; Sole fantasy contribution was to register.

NHPolitico (NH) - Rather inactive since the beginning of December; Its been a while since he was active here.

Rococo04 (OH) - Last post on Dec 14th; Personally, I don't remember this guy that much.

Sulfur (NH) - Last 2 posts: Jan 8th, Nov 17th; Was actually active here when he was posting.

Wiseguy (FL) - Total of 7 fantasy posts since registering on Dec 14th, though not very active elsewhere.

Thats 9 totally inactive out of 27 registered Republicans. There's probably about the same number right now since MHS2002 and CheeseWhiz have moved to other parties, and the Republicans probably have picked up a few registrants.

So, here's my conclusion:

The two major parties translating into Atlasia will have a third of its membership that is deadwood.

At the convention at the end of the month I will call upon the AFRNC to vote to expell these inactive party members from the AFRNC and I call on the AFDNC to do the same. If these "deadwood" members feel the need to return to fantasy politics than they may re-register but until then they should not be a part of a fantasy party.

Geez. We don't need to be burning inactive people at the stake Colin, do we?

I wouldn't mind that when we have the new constitution, it changes the elimination from the voter rolls to one election missed, and not 2.

No burning at the stake required, Akno, but we do want some action so Tomatosouping doesn't become a big problem again.

[Akno21]

And now, the same thing for the Republicans...

Very Well.

9iron (MI) - Active elsewhere; Can't remember when he last did something in here.

AuH2O (VA) - Active elsewhere; Can't remember when he last did something in here.

Chiahead (PA) - Last fantasy post Dec 12th; Barely active elsewhere.

Dazzleman (CT) - Active elsewhere; Can't remember when he last did something in here.

Erc (NY) - Active elsewhere; Can't remember when he last did something in here.

JJ (PA) - Whilst being a brilliant, active poster elsewhere, he is inactive in here.

Lester Maddox (GA) - Last active Dec 20th; Only a few posts when he was here (grand total of 36)

Moorein08 (ID) - Last active Dec 11th; Only a few posts when he was here (grand total of 21)

Mr Fresh (ID) - Was this guy resurrected simply to vote? I think so.

ncjake (FL) - Last active Oct 29th; Sole fantasy contribution was to register.

NHPolitico (NH) - Rather inactive since the beginning of December; Its been a while since he was active here.

Rococo04 (OH) - Last post on Dec 14th; Personally, I don't remember this guy that much.

Sulfur (NH) - Last 2 posts: Jan 8th, Nov 17th; Was actually active here when he was posting.

Wiseguy (FL) - Total of 7 fantasy posts since registering on Dec 14th, though not very active elsewhere.

Thats 9 totally inactive out of 27 registered Republicans. There's probably about the same number right now since MHS2002 and CheeseWhiz have moved to other parties, and the Republicans probably have picked up a few registrants.

So, here's my conclusion:

The two major parties translating into Atlasia will have a third of its membership that is deadwood.

At the convention at the end of the month I will call upon the AFRNC to vote to expell these inactive party members from the AFRNC and I call on the AFDNC to do the same. If these "deadwood" members feel the need to return to fantasy politics than they may re-register but until then they should not be a part of a fantasy party.

Geez. We don't need to be burning inactive people at the stake Colin, do we?

I wouldn't mind that when we have the new constitution, it changes the elimination from the voter rolls to one election missed, and not 2.

No burning at the stake required, Akno, but we do want some action so Tomatosouping doesn't become a big problem again.

I think my plan of reducing the number of missed elections to 1 would do more than simply kicking them out of parties.

[Sam Spade]

Geez. We don't need to be burning inactive people at the stake Colin, do we?

I wouldn't mind that when we have the new constitution, it changes the elimination from the voter rolls to one election missed, and not 2.

I never said anything about burning them on the stake but wouldn't you rather see discussion like this ended? If we expel these people from our respective parties we wouldn't have to hear everyone complain that we have all these pocket votes, or "deadwood" voters, or inactives, in our parties.

It was an expression.

Once voters are off the rolls, they are out the the parties, and I support changing the number of missed elections to be off the rolls to 1, instead of 2.

I would support this as well.

[Akno21]

Geez. We don't need to be burning inactive people at the stake Colin, do we?

I wouldn't mind that when we have the new constitution, it changes the elimination from the voter rolls to one election missed, and not 2.

I never said anything about burning them on the stake but wouldn't you rather see discussion like this ended? If we expel these people from our respective parties we wouldn't have to hear everyone complain that we have all these pocket votes, or "deadwood" voters, or inactives, in our parties.

It was an expression.

Once voters are off the rolls, they are out the the parties, and I support changing the number of missed elections to be off the rolls to 1, instead of 2.

I would support this as well.

Hopefully the delegates will take note

[Jake]

Geez. We don't need to be burning inactive people at the stake Colin, do we?

I wouldn't mind that when we have the new constitution, it changes the elimination from the voter rolls to one election missed, and not 2.

I never said anything about burning them on the stake but wouldn't you rather see discussion like this ended? If we expel these people from our respective parties we wouldn't have to hear everyone complain that we have all these pocket votes, or "deadwood" voters, or inactives, in our parties.

It was an expression.

Once voters are off the rolls, they are out the the parties, and I support changing the number of missed elections to be off the rolls to 1, instead of 2.

I would support this as well.

Hopefully the delegates will take note

I will propose your idea Akno. 

[Akno21]

Geez. We don't need to be burning inactive people at the stake Colin, do we?

I wouldn't mind that when we have the new constitution, it changes the elimination from the voter rolls to one election missed, and not 2.

I never said anything about burning them on the stake but wouldn't you rather see discussion like this ended? If we expel these people from our respective parties we wouldn't have to hear everyone complain that we have all these pocket votes, or "deadwood" voters, or inactives, in our parties.

It was an expression.

Once voters are off the rolls, they are out the the parties, and I support changing the number of missed elections to be off the rolls to 1, instead of 2.

I would support this as well.

Hopefully the delegates will take note

I will propose your idea Akno. 

Thank you, Jake.

[Gustaf]

I oppose that, anyone might miss an election for some reason or another.

Gabu, you have a point, but the AFDNC hasn't really admitted to having any problems - that's why people keep attacking them.

[Akno21]

I oppose that, anyone might miss an election for some reason or another.

Gabu, you have a point, but the AFDNC hasn't really admitted to having any problems - that's why people keep attacking them.

We admit that a member did something inexcusable and flat out wrong.

The party has a whole didn't do anything wrong.

[Nym90]

I oppose that, anyone might miss an election for some reason or another.

Gabu, you have a point, but the AFDNC hasn't really admitted to having any problems - that's why people keep attacking them.

We have problems--no one has ever said that we don't, as far as I'm aware. No party is perfect.

But I think that the entire invactive voter thing is quite overblown. We have a few, but the vast majority are active on the Forum itself, and represent a good cross section of the Forum.

The whole GirlGoneWild thing is also overblown, and used to taint people who had no assosciation with it, as Gabu has said.

[Keystone Phil]

I oppose that, anyone might miss an election for some reason or another.

Gabu, you have a point, but the AFDNC hasn't really admitted to having any problems - that's why people keep attacking them.

The whole GirlGoneWild thing is also overblown, and used to taint people who had no assosciation with it, as Gabu has said.

But people knew and didn't say anything. If we were to listen to people like yourself and Fritz and not point out the fact that GirlGoneWild had suspicious activities on the forum, an illegal ballot would have been counted.

Off topic - Will you debate Mike Naso? If so, when?

[Nym90]

I oppose that, anyone might miss an election for some reason or another.

Gabu, you have a point, but the AFDNC hasn't really admitted to having any problems - that's why people keep attacking them.

The whole GirlGoneWild thing is also overblown, and used to taint people who had no assosciation with it, as Gabu has said.

But people knew and didn't say anything. If we were to listen to people like yourself and Fritz and not point out the fact that GirlGoneWild had suspicious activities on the forum, an illegal ballot would have been counted.

Off topic - Will you debate Mike Naso? If so, when?

Yes, I will debate Naso. Whenever he wants to.

Who knew and didn't say anything? As far as I know, no one.

[Keystone Phil]

I oppose that, anyone might miss an election for some reason or another.

Gabu, you have a point, but the AFDNC hasn't really admitted to having any problems - that's why people keep attacking them.

The whole GirlGoneWild thing is also overblown, and used to taint people who had no assosciation with it, as Gabu has said.

But people knew and didn't say anything. If we were to listen to people like yourself and Fritz and not point out the fact that GirlGoneWild had suspicious activities on the forum, an illegal ballot would have been counted.

Off topic - Will you debate Mike Naso? If so, when?

Yes, I will debate Naso. Whenever he wants to.

Who knew and didn't say anything? As far as I know, no one.

Maybe you didn't know anything but I know of atleast two that knew and still believe that Akno knew what was going on, also.

[Akno21]

I oppose that, anyone might miss an election for some reason or another.

Gabu, you have a point, but the AFDNC hasn't really admitted to having any problems - that's why people keep attacking them.

The whole GirlGoneWild thing is also overblown, and used to taint people who had no assosciation with it, as Gabu has said.

But people knew and didn't say anything. If we were to listen to people like yourself and Fritz and not point out the fact that GirlGoneWild had suspicious activities on the forum, an illegal ballot would have been counted.

Off topic - Will you debate Mike Naso? If so, when?

Yes, I will debate Naso. Whenever he wants to.

Who knew and didn't say anything? As far as I know, no one.

Maybe you didn't know anything but I know of atleast two that knew

Which two?

[Keystone Phil]

I oppose that, anyone might miss an election for some reason or another.

Gabu, you have a point, but the AFDNC hasn't really admitted to having any problems - that's why people keep attacking them.

The whole GirlGoneWild thing is also overblown, and used to taint people who had no assosciation with it, as Gabu has said.

But people knew and didn't say anything. If we were to listen to people like yourself and Fritz and not point out the fact that GirlGoneWild had suspicious activities on the forum, an illegal ballot would have been counted.

Off topic - Will you debate Mike Naso? If so, when?

Yes, I will debate Naso. Whenever he wants to.

Who knew and didn't say anything? As far as I know, no one.

Maybe you didn't know anything but I know of atleast two that knew

Which two?

RedefeatBush told me that he knew about this and urged IrishDem to step out of the race.