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Author Topic: What is your plan for peace between Israel and Palestine?  (Read 1765 times)
k-onmmunist
Winston Disraeli
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« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2012, 06:06:00 pm »
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No, Vosem. The only reason you're free to criticize the U.S. government and such is because you or I or anyone else on our own isn't enough to be a threat. If there was, all your "liberties" would be taken away pretty damn quickly.
Unless you're in the UK, where saying something funny about a black guy can get you two months in jail and kicked out of college.

Did I say the UK was any better?
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Vosem
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« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2012, 06:37:09 pm »
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No, Vosem. The only reason you're free to criticize the U.S. government and such is because you or I or anyone else on our own isn't enough to be a threat. If there was, all your "liberties" would be taken away pretty damn quickly.

If that was so, then how come many authoritarian states, such as (for example), the Soviet Union or the Nazis restricted individuals from speaking out against the regime? Is it that the US is so firmly entrenched that individuals don't matter, but they did in the USSR or in Nazi Germany?
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« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2012, 09:12:25 pm »
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1967 borders.  Israel put under U.N. occupation.  ICC investigation of those who should be investigated by the ICC.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2012, 10:25:04 pm »
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This is preposterous. The US has been spending decades fighting overseas, protecting your right to say whatever you want -- like that, for instance. If it wasn't for the US government, you would not have the right to freely say that -- it always amazes me how people can criticize the US and praise its enemies, when they would not be allowed to do that same thing if they actually lived in one of those enemies. And do you really think overthrowing Hussein and the Taliban killed more civilians than would have died if those governments had remained in power?

You really have no idea at all, do you?

probably demonstrably true in both cases, certain in the case of Iraq.

The current western Armies are better at keeping collateral damage to a bare minimum than anybody else now or ever.  Your hyperbole shows your bias.

sh**t, a political forum would be hella boring without biases.
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Ray Goldfield
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« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2012, 10:16:39 pm »
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1967 borders.  Israel put under U.N. occupation.  ICC investigation of those who should be investigated by the ICC.

A peace plan that involves military occupation of a nuclear power isn't much of a peace plan.
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Ray Goldfield
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« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2012, 10:18:30 pm »
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Give Palestine to Jordan & Egypt, bribe them with some money and let them deal with the fallout.

Really, this is pretty much the only solution that has a possibility of working. Egypt (assuming it doesn't have a radical takeover) is powerful enough to administer Gaza, and the Jordan situation has been the elephant in the room for a very long time.

Really, Jordan should be Palestine. The fact that this is never brought up - especially considering the Hashemite regime's crimes against Palestinians - is pretty indicative of the global bias.
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FallenMorgan
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« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2012, 02:42:36 am »
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1967 borders.  Israel put under U.N. occupation.  ICC investigation of those who should be investigated by the ICC.

A peace plan that involves military occupation of a nuclear power isn't much of a peace plan.

WWII involved military occupation of Germany for a time.  Once Israel has undergone dezionistization, it can return to civilian rule.
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k-onmmunist
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« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2012, 09:10:30 am »
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1967 borders.  Israel put under U.N. occupation.  ICC investigation of those who should be investigated by the ICC.

A peace plan that involves military occupation of a nuclear power isn't much of a peace plan.

WWII involved military occupation of Germany for a time.  Once Israel has undergone dezionistization, it can return to civilian rule.

I usually agree with you Morgan, but this is nothing short of insane.
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Speaker Dereich
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« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2012, 09:12:38 am »
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Give Palestine to Jordan & Egypt, bribe them with some money and let them deal with the fallout.

Really, this is pretty much the only solution that has a possibility of working. Egypt (assuming it doesn't have a radical takeover) is powerful enough to administer Gaza, and the Jordan situation has been the elephant in the room for a very long time.

Really, Jordan should be Palestine. The fact that this is never brought up - especially considering the Hashemite regime's crimes against Palestinians - is pretty indicative of the global bias.

That might have been possible at the beginning, but not now. Like it or not the Palestinian people are united by a shared national identity, in large part due to the occupation. And I don't see why you think that would be an idea that would work. Even with a long standing peace treaty with Jordan the Israelis still keep large numbers of troops in occupied territory manning that border. What makes you think they would be content with allowing the Jordanian army so close to the heart of their country? As for Egypt, the current peace deal keeps the Egyptian army out of the Sinai for the same reason, so how are they supposed to prevent attacks on Israel from Gaza? I seriously doubt Israel is more happy to have two more foreign armies stationed on its border.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 09:55:23 am by Dereich »Logged
Ray Goldfield
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« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2012, 09:21:45 am »
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1967 borders.  Israel put under U.N. occupation.  ICC investigation of those who should be investigated by the ICC.

A peace plan that involves military occupation of a nuclear power isn't much of a peace plan.



WWII involved military occupation of Germany for a time.  Once Israel has undergone dezionistization, it can return to civilian rule.

Germany didn't have nuclear weapons. It was occupied at the conclusion of the bloodiest conflict in human history.

Not a good comparison. If the UN tries to occupy Israel by force, it'll be in for a very unpleasant surprise. The Jews kind of have a thing about being conquered by foreign powers.
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« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2012, 10:32:40 am »
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1967 borders.  Israel put under U.N. occupation.  ICC investigation of those who should be investigated by the ICC.

A peace plan that involves military occupation of a nuclear power isn't much of a peace plan.

WWII involved military occupation of Germany for a time.  Once Israel has undergone dezionistization, it can return to civilian rule.

I usually agree with you Morgan, but this is nothing short of insane.

Don't worry, I'm not being serious.
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Carlos Danger
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« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2012, 10:41:14 am »
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A just peace:  Expulsion without compensation of all land thieves and murderers, preferably with punishment for their actions.  Proof that land was non-coercively purchased from its occupants prior to 1946 will be license to stay provided the occupants are not also murderers.

The "final solution" as will most likely happen IRL:  Land thieves complete their campaign of genocide, continue to periodically bomb civilian targets in surrounding countries for sh**ts and giggles.
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Redalgo
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« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2012, 11:54:19 am »
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I am especially partial to Dereich's proposal, although it would be better in my opinion to allow Palestine to establish armed forces after a fixed period of time (maybe a decade or two). Aside from that, something would have to be done about disputes concerning water rights. A severe set of incentives laid out by the international community must also be in place to ensure all the parties involved stick to the deal - seeing as neither the Israelis nor Palestinians will be particularly thrilled with some of the agreement's outcomes.   
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« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2012, 12:30:00 pm »
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2 state solution with 1967 borders with land swaps. A divided Jerusalem would be the capital of both countries, divided on ethnic/religious lines. The Palestinians would have no military, along the lines of Japan after World War II. The borders of the new Palestine would be manned by an international force, probably a UN force possibly one of a third party (I think the British were mentioned at one point). As for the right of return, a small number of refugees will be allowed to return, the rest will be compensated with money. This money should be in part provided by Israel and in part by the international community. We in America should provide a big chunk of it, as peace in the middle east would be worth the cost.

This, though I would include the Arab League (as the mentioned third party) along with the United Nations in policing the borders of Palestine.  
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LastVoter
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« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2012, 03:26:13 pm »
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Give Palestine to Jordan & Egypt, bribe them with some money and let them deal with the fallout.

Really, this is pretty much the only solution that has a possibility of working. Egypt (assuming it doesn't have a radical takeover) is powerful enough to administer Gaza, and the Jordan situation has been the elephant in the room for a very long time.

Really, Jordan should be Palestine. The fact that this is never brought up - especially considering the Hashemite regime's crimes against Palestinians - is pretty indicative of the global bias.

That might have been possible at the beginning, but not now. Like it or not the Palestinian people are united by a shared national identity, in large part due to the occupation. And I don't see why you think that would be an idea that would work. Even with a long standing peace treaty with Jordan the Israelis still keep large numbers of troops in occupied territory manning that border. What makes you think they would be content with allowing the Jordanian army so close to the heart of their country? As for Egypt, the current peace deal keeps the Egyptian army out of the Sinai for the same reason, so how are they supposed to prevent attacks on Israel from Gaza? I seriously doubt Israel is more happy to have two more foreign armies stationed on its border.
Israel may be unhappy with a lot of things, like other people living near them, but they are going to have to deal with it.
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Beet
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« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2012, 03:33:17 pm »
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Time machine back to 1996. Rape Hamas.
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Brian Schweitzer '16
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« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2012, 04:29:14 pm »
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Give Palestine to Jordan & Egypt, bribe them with some money and let them deal with the fallout.

Really, this is pretty much the only solution that has a possibility of working. Egypt (assuming it doesn't have a radical takeover) is powerful enough to administer Gaza, and the Jordan situation has been the elephant in the room for a very long time.

Really, Jordan should be Palestine. The fact that this is never brought up - especially considering the Hashemite regime's crimes against Palestinians - is pretty indicative of the global bias.

That might have been possible at the beginning, but not now. Like it or not the Palestinian people are united by a shared national identity, in large part due to the occupation. And I don't see why you think that would be an idea that would work. Even with a long standing peace treaty with Jordan the Israelis still keep large numbers of troops in occupied territory manning that border. What makes you think they would be content with allowing the Jordanian army so close to the heart of their country? As for Egypt, the current peace deal keeps the Egyptian army out of the Sinai for the same reason, so how are they supposed to prevent attacks on Israel from Gaza? I seriously doubt Israel is more happy to have two more foreign armies stationed on its border.
Israel may be unhappy with a lot of things, like other people living near them, but they are going to have to deal with it.

It just points to the crux of the argument against the "three state solution". It makes absolutely no one happy. The Egyptians, Jordanians, Palestinians, and Israelis would all be unhappy with it. It probably wouldn't even stop the violence, as the Jordanians and Egyptians wouldn't really be inclined to waste blood and treasure to keep unruly Palestinians (who they never even wanted) in line. A one state solution runs into the same problems. A two state solution with an independent Israel and Palestine is really the only way to have a peaceful solution.
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Hatman
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« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2012, 07:41:24 am »
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No solution will make everyone happy, so a solution where no one is happy is ideal. As long as both sides are equally unhappy.
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dead0man
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« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2012, 08:06:00 am »
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I think fairness and peace is more important than making sure both sides are equal in happiness (or unhappiness).
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Quote from:   Martha Gellhorn for The Atlantic 1961
The unique misfortune of the Palestinian refugees is that they are a weapon in what seems to be a permanent war...today, in the Middle East, you get a repeated sinking sensation about the Palestinian refugees: they are only a beginning, not an end. Their function is to hang around and be constantly useful as a goad. The ultimate aim is not such humane small potatoes as repatriating refugees.
Comrade Sibboleth
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« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2012, 08:13:28 am »
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There are, of course, no genuinely acceptable solutions.
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Richard Hoggart 1918-2014
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« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2012, 09:10:48 am »
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Btw, didn't see another thread on this, but Barak floated this a few days ago:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18265526
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« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2012, 11:04:20 am »
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In an ideal world an only and secular state and equal citizenship rights for Jewish and Arab populations. In the real world, two states (Israel and Palestine) with borders negotiated on the basis of 1967 ones with Jerusalem as shared capital with special status.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 08:18:27 am by yellow brick road »Logged

ingemann
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« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2012, 01:22:28 pm »
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My suggestion to a peace treaty is to ethnic cleanse Maryland and give it to the Palestinians.
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Peter the Lefty
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« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2012, 10:16:25 pm »
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Put sanctions on Israel until they agree to withdraw all settlement from the West Bank and East Jerusalem, to allow a Palestinian State to be formed and subsequently withdraw all troops from the West Bank, to allow humaniarian goods into Gaza, and to allow Palestinians who once lived in what is now Israel to return home.  And they must also have another round of sanctions slapped on them until they reverse a lot of the racist legislation of the current government. 
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dead0man
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« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2012, 05:59:46 am »
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subtle
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Quote from:   Martha Gellhorn for The Atlantic 1961
The unique misfortune of the Palestinian refugees is that they are a weapon in what seems to be a permanent war...today, in the Middle East, you get a repeated sinking sensation about the Palestinian refugees: they are only a beginning, not an end. Their function is to hang around and be constantly useful as a goad. The ultimate aim is not such humane small potatoes as repatriating refugees.
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