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Author Topic: Anyone else feel this way? (Abortion)  (Read 1440 times)
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FallenMorgan
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« on: May 27, 2012, 03:44:48 pm »
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Yeah, I'm back.

I support the legal right to an abortion, of course.  But I'm a bit different from most other people who support abortion rights -- because, I don't really have much of a moral opposition to abortion.  I don't really give a [Inks] if people just abort because they don't want babby.

In fact, I think that the social...ideas about fetuses and abortion should be changed, to make it less of a serious issue.  It'd be a win-win -- no more women sinking into depression because even pro-choice people made them feel like they killed a person, and no more 16 and Pregnant.

I was wondering -- does anyone else feel this way, at least in terms of not really giving a crap about fetuses?

Now...

I do have some moral qualms.  Like sex-selective abortion done for blatantly misogynous (or misandronous) reasons, or aborting fetuses that have disorders that aren't debilitating but just make people kind of abnormal (like Asperger's).  But that's about it.
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« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2012, 03:50:43 pm »
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Yeah, I'm back.

I support the legal right to an abortion, of course.  But I'm a bit different from most other people who support abortion rights -- because, I don't really have much of a moral opposition to abortion.  I don't really give a [Inks] if people just abort because they don't want babby.

In fact, I think that the social...ideas about fetuses and abortion should be changed, to make it less of a serious issue.  It'd be a win-win -- no more women sinking into depression because even pro-choice people made them feel like they killed a person, and no more 16 and Pregnant.

I was wondering -- does anyone else feel this way, at least in terms of not really giving a crap about fetuses?

Now...

I do have some moral qualms.  Like sex-selective abortion done for blatantly misogynous (or misandronous) reasons, or aborting fetuses that have disorders that aren't debilitating but just make people kind of abnormal (like Asperger's).  But that's about it.

Whats your reasoning for opposing these? I would think opposition to these kinds of abortion would depend on those same ideas about fetuses that you want to get rid of.
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FallenMorgan
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« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2012, 03:54:14 pm »
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Yeah, I'm back.

I support the legal right to an abortion, of course.  But I'm a bit different from most other people who support abortion rights -- because, I don't really have much of a moral opposition to abortion.  I don't really give a [Inks] if people just abort because they don't want babby.

In fact, I think that the social...ideas about fetuses and abortion should be changed, to make it less of a serious issue.  It'd be a win-win -- no more women sinking into depression because even pro-choice people made them feel like they killed a person, and no more 16 and Pregnant.

I was wondering -- does anyone else feel this way, at least in terms of not really giving a crap about fetuses?

Now...

I do have some moral qualms.  Like sex-selective abortion done for blatantly misogynous (or misandronous) reasons, or aborting fetuses that have disorders that aren't debilitating but just make people kind of abnormal (like Asperger's).  But that's about it.

Whats your reasoning for opposing these? I would think opposition to these kinds of abortion would depend on those same ideas about fetuses that you want to get rid of.

I honestly have no idea.
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« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2012, 03:57:02 pm »
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Yeah, I'm back.

I support the legal right to an abortion, of course.  But I'm a bit different from most other people who support abortion rights
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That has got to be one of the most retarded proposals I have read on this forum.

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« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2012, 03:58:06 pm »
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Foetuses are comparable to tapeworms in terms of their nature. I could honestly care less if they're aborted or not, until they're actually born.
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« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2012, 04:02:19 pm »
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Foetuses are comparable to tapeworms in terms of their nature. I could honestly care less if they're aborted or not, until they're actually born.
Are you being hyperbolic or are you actually that ill-informed?
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« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2012, 04:57:26 pm »
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Foetuses are comparable to tapeworms in terms of their nature. I could honestly care less if they're aborted or not, until they're actually born.
Are you being hyperbolic or are you actually that ill-informed?

To be fair, they are 'comparable' to tapeworms, in the sense that a compare-and-contrast can be done, but I wouldn't say they're comparable in terms of what that word generally connotes.
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« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2012, 09:31:18 pm »
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I'm a bit different from most other people who support abortion rights -- because, I don't really have much of a moral opposition to abortion.

Neither do I. But I don't think that it's unusual.
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« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2012, 09:39:06 pm »
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I feel more or less the same way regarding that honestly. Restriction on abortion is an attempt to control a woman's body and should not exist.
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« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2012, 01:31:55 am »
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That's clearly a side of pro-life politics that inherits strong from women submission cultural traits. But, I wouldn't call a foetus with an already formed brain a tape worm. Actually, the definition of human life's beginning is a definitive issue on this debate. But, once it's clear the development is in a phase that's not a human being there yet, denying a woman her right to decide if she want or not go on, whatever her reasoning is, is such an obvious authoritarian control over her life I wonder why so many nonreligious people is pro-life.
BTW, probably many of you never followed an abortion situation. I'll tell you, there's absolutely no easiness, and I know very few women who would choose to do It. With the share of those who would repeat reaching null.
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« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2012, 11:29:57 am »
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I actually feel almost identically about this issue. The only difference is that I do dislike the idea of them. Abortions are unfortunate, and of course I'm going to become attached to the idea of something so wonderful. But that's why it's not fair to be basing laws off that feeling. Especially when the person bringing a life into the world is ill-prepared, ill-suited in general, or just uninterested in raising a child. I imagine a pregnant woman is dealing with much more powerful emotions than I as a detached commentator could ever feel. We shouldn't be making her feel worse about it because of our own personal qualms, ruining her life on top of having to make such a difficult decision. We far too often rush to judgment on people we don't understand. That, I think, is the underlying societal flaw that makes issues like this so unbearable to discuss.
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« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2012, 01:27:03 pm »
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I consider myself to be atypical on the abortion issue myself.  I have no strong opinion as to when the line should be drawn (i.e., at this stage of development abortion should be legal but at the next stage it should not be legal) but I am strongly opposed to the exceptions for rape and incest that some favor.  To me the central question in the abortion issue is "Are we talking about a human life yet?"  If we are, then abortion should generally be illegal save where the physical health of the mother is at stake and if we aren't, then the state should butt out.  However, the fact that the physiological father of the child is a reprehensible criminal does not affect whether a human life is what is being considered.
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« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2012, 02:51:46 pm »
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I consider myself to be atypical on the abortion issue myself.  I have no strong opinion as to when the line should be drawn (i.e., at this stage of development abortion should be legal but at the next stage it should not be legal) but I am strongly opposed to the exceptions for rape and incest that some favor. To me the central question in the abortion issue is "Are we talking about a human life yet?" If we are, then abortion should generally be illegal save where the physical health of the mother is at stake and if we aren't, then the state should butt out. However, the fact that the physiological father of the child is a reprehensible criminal does not affect whether a human life is what is being considered.
I don't think you understand what its doing to a woman having to carry her rapists child. This is an extreme cruelty towards the victim of a violent crime and has severe mental consequences. Its basically a choice between ruining one humans life or destroying another life. In this context its fair and reasonable to choose the individual that's already born over the fetus.

In short: Giving birth to a child conceived by rape and/or incest very much affects the mother mental health, and why should that be any less important than her physical health? The consequences can certainly be just as severe.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 03:05:56 pm by fascistbeijingregime »Logged

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« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2012, 03:55:27 pm »
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I consider myself to be atypical on the abortion issue myself.  I have no strong opinion as to when the line should be drawn (i.e., at this stage of development abortion should be legal but at the next stage it should not be legal) but I am strongly opposed to the exceptions for rape and incest that some favor. To me the central question in the abortion issue is "Are we talking about a human life yet?" If we are, then abortion should generally be illegal save where the physical health of the mother is at stake and if we aren't, then the state should butt out. However, the fact that the physiological father of the child is a reprehensible criminal does not affect whether a human life is what is being considered.
I don't think you understand what its doing to a woman having to carry her rapists child. This is an extreme cruelty towards the victim of a violent crime and has severe mental consequences. Its basically a choice between ruining one humans life or destroying another life. In this context its fair and reasonable to choose the individual that's already born over the fetus.

In short: Giving birth to a child conceived by rape and/or incest very much affects the mother mental health, and why should that be any less important than her physical health? The consequences can certainly be just as severe.

This. To go through a pregnancy and not having a child you can raise in the end is not as destructible, but It's still some kind of cruelty, also. The case for anencephaly must come from people who got anencephalous throughout life.
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« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2012, 05:57:37 pm »
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Yeah, I'm back.

I support the legal right to an abortion, of course.  But I'm a bit different from most other people who support abortion rights

no

Mature. And might I add very creative.
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Torie
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« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2012, 06:44:26 pm »

Sure I have qualms. As the fetus develops, and gets brain ways, and then moves, it is just too human for me to call it a "tapeworm," a most tendentious and inflammatory term. So for the first trimester legal, and thereafter you need a court order, and one could obtain one, if the fetus is deformed, or the physical health of the mother is involved. For rape and incest, I expect for those who wish an abortion, to do it in the first trimester.

On this issue, of course, there is no right or wrong answer. It's all subjective.
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« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2012, 06:48:28 pm »
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I consider myself to be atypical on the abortion issue myself.  I have no strong opinion as to when the line should be drawn (i.e., at this stage of development abortion should be legal but at the next stage it should not be legal) but I am strongly opposed to the exceptions for rape and incest that some favor. To me the central question in the abortion issue is "Are we talking about a human life yet?" If we are, then abortion should generally be illegal save where the physical health of the mother is at stake and if we aren't, then the state should butt out. However, the fact that the physiological father of the child is a reprehensible criminal does not affect whether a human life is what is being considered.
I don't think you understand what its doing to a woman having to carry her rapists child. This is an extreme cruelty towards the victim of a violent crime and has severe mental consequences. Its basically a choice between ruining one humans life or destroying another life. In this context its fair and reasonable to choose the individual that's already born over the fetus.

In short: Giving birth to a child conceived by rape and/or incest very much affects the mother mental health, and why should that be any less important than her physical health? The consequences can certainly be just as severe.

Would you support killing the rapist in this situation if the biological mother thought it would help her mental health?  The situation is analogous.  In both cases, we have what society has judged to meet the standards of being a human life and yet are proposing to allow to be terminated at the discretion of another because of their belief concerning how it would affect their mental health.  Frankly, killing the rapist in this situation is more justified, because at least he has committed a crime.

The reason I have for supporting a physical health exception is that it can often be determined in an objective fashion, especially in those cases where not only the physical health of the mother is at risk, but the physical health of both is at risk.  Unfortunately, our ability to determine the risks to mental health is mostly subjective.
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« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2012, 07:01:43 pm »
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I think the rape exception comes down to property right, the idea being that the original justification for legal abortion is that you have the ultimate right over your own body and what it is used for. However, you can say that when you engage in sex, then you are implicitly surrendering your body to the possibility of nine month's pregnancy in the case of women [and possibly 18 years of child support payments at minimum in the case of men], and hence surrender this right. However, that doesn't apply in the case of rape because you never voluntarily surrendered the right.

O/c, that's not my position, but it is a logically consistent one in theory. It's not totally irrational. In the case of incest I can't address.
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« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2012, 07:25:07 pm »
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I can accept the property right theory as one possible rationale for legalizing abortion in the general case at various stages of development.  (Of course, that leads to other thorny issues, such as if the woman was married at the time of conception, is the spouse's permission required for an abortion to proceed?  (Or even thornier, if the pregnancy is a result of adultery, can a spouse force another spouse to have an abortion so as to free the space for a non-adulterous child?))

Yet, in the specific narrow wedge we're talking about, the society has already determined that the property rights of the woman to her womb do not outweigh the rights of what is inside that womb to a chance for life.  Since what is inside had no part in the commission of the rape or incest, it is not just to punish it with death for the actions of a third party.
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« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2012, 01:15:52 am »
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Right; I'm not arguing against your position, which is a perfectly consistent position. I'm just saying that there is also a possible internal logic to the rape exception (not that most people who support the rape exception necessarily do so for logical reasons). If you believe that a woman's surrender of the right to her womb occurs when the woman voluntarily engages in intercourse, which is known to carry a risk of pregnancy, then she didn't surrender that in the case of rape.
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« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2012, 02:40:05 am »
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I guess you could call me pro-abortion in a way.

When my cousin got knocked up at like 16, I thought GET AN ABORTION YOU MORON, but I didn't dare pipe up, lest everyone look at me like I'm such a bastard.  She's from Bakersfield anyways, meaning she's all Christiany despite her whole family being addicted to crystal meth.

But really, it wasn't so much "get an abortion you moron" as much as it was "maybe she should get an abortion so she can enjoy her life a little bit."  Well...I would have framed it that way anyways.

Kid died anyways.  She's probably screwed up for life, and then she'll have other kids who she's going to pass on her screwed-up-ness to, like how my mother passed on her screwed-up-ness to me.  At least I shall do the humane thing and never reproduce.
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« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2012, 12:00:21 pm »
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No, that's pretty sick.

I do have some moral qualms.  Like sex-selective abortion done for blatantly misogynous (or misandronous) reasons, or aborting fetuses that have disorders that aren't debilitating but just make people kind of abnormal (like Asperger's).  But that's about it.

Isn't that contradictory? If the fetus is not worth anything (or, at least, not worth legal protection), why should you care any differently based on the circumstances (disorders)? I mean, it's just a fetus.
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« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2012, 02:57:06 pm »
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No, that's pretty sick.

I do have some moral qualms.  Like sex-selective abortion done for blatantly misogynous (or misandronous) reasons, or aborting fetuses that have disorders that aren't debilitating but just make people kind of abnormal (like Asperger's).  But that's about it.

Isn't that contradictory? If the fetus is not worth anything (or, at least, not worth legal protection), why should you care any differently based on the circumstances (disorders)? I mean, it's just a fetus.

I don't know.

I just find it really annoying when parents stress out over making sure they have "normal" offspring, to the point that they would abort a high-functioning autistic or possibly-psychopathic fetus (assuming we develop a way to find this pre-natally) or have "designer babies" that are specifically designed to be normal without any of these disorders.  I don't really give a darn though, if it's being aborted for any other reason and it happens to have these disorders.  It's not like "oooh save the non-neurotypical fetuses."  So it's less about the fetus and more about the stupid parents and their stupid mindset.
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« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2012, 04:05:20 pm »
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I consider myself to be atypical on the abortion issue myself.  I have no strong opinion as to when the line should be drawn (i.e., at this stage of development abortion should be legal but at the next stage it should not be legal) but I am strongly opposed to the exceptions for rape and incest that some favor. To me the central question in the abortion issue is "Are we talking about a human life yet?" If we are, then abortion should generally be illegal save where the physical health of the mother is at stake and if we aren't, then the state should butt out. However, the fact that the physiological father of the child is a reprehensible criminal does not affect whether a human life is what is being considered.
I don't think you understand what its doing to a woman having to carry her rapists child. This is an extreme cruelty towards the victim of a violent crime and has severe mental consequences. Its basically a choice between ruining one humans life or destroying another life. In this context its fair and reasonable to choose the individual that's already born over the fetus.

In short: Giving birth to a child conceived by rape and/or incest very much affects the mother mental health, and why should that be any less important than her physical health? The consequences can certainly be just as severe.
That's a bit extreme, isn't it?   

What do people base this assumption on that abortion is always less psychologically harmful than giving birth in these cases?
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« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2012, 04:38:12 pm »
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It isn't always going to be but since it can be a woman should have the option. Not all women are the same.
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