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Question: Do you believe that you have a soul?
Yes   -32 (45.7%)
No   -30 (42.9%)
Don't know   -8 (11.4%)
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Total Voters: 70

Author Topic: Do you have a soul?  (Read 5616 times)
IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble
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« Reply #75 on: July 23, 2012, 12:58:41 pm »
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The experience of thinking is inherently non-physical.

If the brain is indeed the sole source of consciousness and thought is the result of neurochemical processes then thinking is purely a physical action. What is your evidence that thinking involves more than purely material processes?

My evidence is purely the reason why when we attempt to teleport living beings, the energy and way of living is left behind. Energy is not and cannot be controlled by matter.

1. As danny has pointed out we don't have teleportation technology at this point in time, so either you're from the future or you're just pulling things out of your fanny.

2. When you say energy isn't and can't be controlled by matter, are you taking into account the energy manipulation required by the matter that makes up your computer and all of the matter based infrastructure in order for you to even post here? Or how about the chemical energy your body manipulates in order to continue functioning?
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« Reply #76 on: July 23, 2012, 01:08:20 pm »
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The experience of thinking is inherently non-physical.

If the brain is indeed the sole source of consciousness and thought is the result of neurochemical processes then thinking is purely a physical action. What is your evidence that thinking involves more than purely material processes?

My evidence is purely the reason why when we attempt to teleport living beings, the energy and way of living is left behind. Energy is not and cannot be controlled by matter.

1. As danny has pointed out we don't have teleportation technology at this point in time, so either you're from the future or you're just pulling things out of your fanny.

2. When you say energy isn't and can't be controlled by matter, are you taking into account the energy manipulation required by the matter that makes up your computer and all of the matter based infrastructure in order for you to even post here? Or how about the chemical energy your body manipulates in order to continue functioning?

1. I believe you both missed the word attempt

2. Explain to me, Mr. Dibble, why honey is sweet.

Oh and by the way, I post from a kindle fire, not a computer
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Quote from:  Edward Gibbon
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.


Quote from:  Albert Einstein
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Quote from:  Lucius Annaeus Seneca
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #77 on: July 23, 2012, 01:33:53 pm »
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The experience of thinking is inherently non-physical.

If the brain is indeed the sole source of consciousness and thought is the result of neurochemical processes then thinking is purely a physical action. What is your evidence that thinking involves more than purely material processes?

Well, those neurochemical processes would be the "event" that causes the "effect" of experiencing thought. So while thinking may have roots in physicality, thinking is, itself, very different. As an experience, it cannot be physically quantified and is not manifest in a tangible environment.
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danny
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« Reply #78 on: July 23, 2012, 01:53:04 pm »
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The experience of thinking is inherently non-physical.

If the brain is indeed the sole source of consciousness and thought is the result of neurochemical processes then thinking is purely a physical action. What is your evidence that thinking involves more than purely material processes?

My evidence is purely the reason why when we attempt to teleport living beings, the energy and way of living is left behind. Energy is not and cannot be controlled by matter.

1. As danny has pointed out we don't have teleportation technology at this point in time, so either you're from the future or you're just pulling things out of your fanny.

2. When you say energy isn't and can't be controlled by matter, are you taking into account the energy manipulation required by the matter that makes up your computer and all of the matter based infrastructure in order for you to even post here? Or how about the chemical energy your body manipulates in order to continue functioning?

1. I believe you both missed the word attempt

2. Explain to me, Mr. Dibble, why honey is sweet.

Oh and by the way, I post from a kindle fire, not a computer

I didn't miss it, but if we haven't managed to actually teleport something, than it could not have left anything behind. Hence my reasoning as to why you would be talking from a future in which we were successful.
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oakvale
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« Reply #79 on: July 23, 2012, 01:57:22 pm »
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The experience of thinking is inherently non-physical.

If the brain is indeed the sole source of consciousness and thought is the result of neurochemical processes then thinking is purely a physical action. What is your evidence that thinking involves more than purely material processes?

My evidence is purely the reason why when we attempt to teleport living beings, the energy and way of living is left behind. Energy is not and cannot be controlled by matter.

1. As danny has pointed out we don't have teleportation technology at this point in time, so either you're from the future or you're just pulling things out of your fanny.

2. When you say energy isn't and can't be controlled by matter, are you taking into account the energy manipulation required by the matter that makes up your computer and all of the matter based infrastructure in order for you to even post here? Or how about the chemical energy your body manipulates in order to continue functioning?

1. I believe you both missed the word attempt

2. Explain to me, Mr. Dibble, why honey is sweet.

Oh and by the way, I post from a kindle fire, not a computer


A Kindle Fire is a computer.
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IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble
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« Reply #80 on: July 23, 2012, 02:14:57 pm »
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1. I believe you both missed the word attempt

Is English not your first language, because "missed the word attempt" is not a phrase that has actual meaning.

Quote
2. Explain to me, Mr. Dibble, why honey is sweet.

When a substance touches your taste buds they detect the rough chemical composition of the substance and send electrical signals through your nervous system to your brain. Five types of signals can be sent that are associated with certain types of tastes - sweet, salty, sour, bitter, and savory. The brain will translate these signals into a distinct taste for the individual substance based on the combination and strength of the signals.

Sugars make taste buds send the signal for sweet. Since honey is mostly composed of sugars, so when it touches your tasted buds they will send the signals for "sweet" stronger than any other signal. It doesn't taste the same as when you put pure sugar on your tongue due to the presence of other substances which result in additional signals being sent at varying levels of strength.

The reason behind this mechanism is explained by evolution. Animals that can detect the chemical composition of foods have an advantage over those that don't for a few reasons. For humans, "sour" and "bitter" are generally regarded as unpleasant (at least on their own) as they may indicate that food is rotten or poisonous, whereas "sweet", "salty", and "savory" indicate the food contains calories and nutrition and are generally regarded as pleasant. Combined with the ability to store information, knowing which foods have what tastes can let the brain indicate which foods an animal would need to pursue if it is running low on a certain type of nutrition - for instance, if you are low on vitamin C you might crave oranges, lemons, or other vitamin C rich foods you've eaten before.

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Oh and by the way, I post from a kindle fire, not a computer

A kindle fire or any other tablet computing device is still a computer.
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« Reply #81 on: July 23, 2012, 02:15:40 pm »
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A Kindle Fire is not a computer. If it is so is an iPad, or even a smartphone.
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IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble
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« Reply #82 on: July 23, 2012, 02:22:18 pm »
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A Kindle Fire is not a computer. If it is so is an iPad, or even a smartphone.

Yeah, those are computers. There's more computational power in any of those devices than in the machines that took up entire rooms that NASA used send men to the moon in the sixties. I have a degree in computer science, don't argue with me on this - you will lose.
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gunnut
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« Reply #83 on: July 23, 2012, 03:15:29 pm »
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1. I believe you both missed the word attempt

Is English not your first language, because "missed the word attempt" is not a phrase that has actual meaning.

Quote
2. Explain to me, Mr. Dibble, why honey is sweet.

When a substance touches your taste buds they detect the rough chemical composition of the substance and send electrical signals through your nervous system to your brain. Five types of signals can be sent that are associated with certain types of tastes - sweet, salty, sour, bitter, and savory. The brain will translate these signals into a distinct taste for the individual substance based on the combination and strength of the signals.

Sugars make taste buds send the signal for sweet. Since honey is mostly composed of sugars, so when it touches your tasted buds they will send the signals for "sweet" stronger than any other signal. It doesn't taste the same as when you put pure sugar on your tongue due to the presence of other substances which result in additional signals being sent at varying levels of strength.

The reason behind this mechanism is explained by evolution. Animals that can detect the chemical composition of foods have an advantage over those that don't for a few reasons. For humans, "sour" and "bitter" are generally regarded as unpleasant (at least on their own) as they may indicate that food is rotten or poisonous, whereas "sweet", "salty", and "savory" indicate the food contains calories and nutrition and are generally regarded as pleasant. Combined with the ability to store information, knowing which foods have what tastes can let the brain indicate which foods an animal would need to pursue if it is running low on a certain type of nutrition - for instance, if you are low on vitamin C you might crave oranges, lemons, or other vitamin C rich foods you've eaten before.

Quote
Oh and by the way, I post from a kindle fire, not a computer

A kindle fire or any other tablet computing device is still a computer.

1. The phrase makes complete sense, save the absence of italics. It really bugs me when the people who argue against me seem to find weakness not in the content of my speeches, but the grammar. Please don't turn into Obama, Mr. Dibble.

2. I asked "why?", not "how?". Why must sugars be sweet? What if they're actually sour or spicy and we just assume them to be sweet? It's all how our brain perceives the signals, true. But why are those signals perceived as such?

3. By specification, a kindle fire is a eReader, which is neither a tablet nor a computer. In general, all three work in the same way (save the heat sensor touch screen) so therefore are the same.
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Quote from:  Edward Gibbon
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.


Quote from:  Albert Einstein
Those who have never failed have never tried anything new.

Quote from:  Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.

Quote from:  Ronald Reagan
You can tell a lot about a fellow's character by the way he eats jelly beans.
IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble
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« Reply #84 on: July 23, 2012, 03:35:13 pm »
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1. The phrase makes complete sense, save the absence of italics. It really bugs me when the people who argue against me seem to find weakness not in the content of my speeches, but the grammar.

No, it doesn't, and neither does your teleporter nonsense. We neither have teleporters nor have we ever tried to teleport a human being. If it bugs you that people find weakness in your ability to communicate, I suggest making efforts to improve it. It might also help if you knew what the hell you were talking about.

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Please don't turn into Obama, Mr. Dibble.

Please stop being an idiot, Mr. Nut.

Quote
2. I asked "why?", not "how?". Why must sugars be sweet? What if they're actually sour or spicy and we just assume them to be sweet? It's all how our brain perceives the signals, true. But why are those signals perceived as such?

Because our evolutionary history is such that our species gets an advantage in perceiving them as sweet. There need not be any other reason, and even if I didn't have an answer to the question it isn't relevant - not knowing the answer to a question does not give you license to make stuff up to answer it.

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3. By specification, a kindle fire is a eReader, which is neither a tablet nor a computer. In general, all three work in the same way (save the heat sensor touch screen) so therefore are the same.

It's a computer however else you want to otherwise label it. It's just a computer designed for a specific task. The dictionary defines a computer as "an electronic device for storing and processing data, typically in binary form, according to instructions given to it in a variable program" - care to explain why you think your Kindle doesn't qualify as doing that?
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« Reply #85 on: July 23, 2012, 04:42:23 pm »
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1. The phrase makes complete sense, save the absence of italics. It really bugs me when the people who argue against me seem to find weakness not in the content of my speeches, but the grammar.

No, it doesn't, and neither does your teleporter nonsense. We neither have teleporters nor have we ever tried to teleport a human being. If it bugs you that people find weakness in your ability to communicate, I suggest making efforts to improve it. It might also help if you knew what the hell you were talking about.


Oh, come on. This is a subject where no one really knows what they're talking about. To assume intellectual superiority based on the conclusions one comes to in a religion and philosophy forum is pretty disappointing.
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IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble
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« Reply #86 on: July 23, 2012, 06:15:17 pm »
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1. The phrase makes complete sense, save the absence of italics. It really bugs me when the people who argue against me seem to find weakness not in the content of my speeches, but the grammar.

No, it doesn't, and neither does your teleporter nonsense. We neither have teleporters nor have we ever tried to teleport a human being. If it bugs you that people find weakness in your ability to communicate, I suggest making efforts to improve it. It might also help if you knew what the hell you were talking about.

Oh, come on. This is a subject where no one really knows what they're talking about. To assume intellectual superiority based on the conclusions one comes to in a religion and philosophy forum is pretty disappointing.

Hagrid, did you not see where this guy was trying to use teleportation as his evidence? The guy clearly has no clue what he's talking about.
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oakvale
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« Reply #87 on: July 23, 2012, 07:04:44 pm »
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A Kindle Fire is not a computer. If it is so is an iPad, or even a smartphone.

Of course both those things are computers. Dibble has a degree in computer science and I'm a recent college dropout who was studying for a degree in computer science, so that counts as like 0.2 of a degree.
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oakvale
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« Reply #88 on: July 23, 2012, 07:16:34 pm »
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Also, gunnut's "argument" resting on teleportation is my favourite thing. Grin
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« Reply #89 on: July 23, 2012, 07:21:33 pm »
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1. The phrase makes complete sense, save the absence of italics. It really bugs me when the people who argue against me seem to find weakness not in the content of my speeches, but the grammar.

No, it doesn't, and neither does your teleporter nonsense. We neither have teleporters nor have we ever tried to teleport a human being. If it bugs you that people find weakness in your ability to communicate, I suggest making efforts to improve it. It might also help if you knew what the hell you were talking about.

Oh, come on. This is a subject where no one really knows what they're talking about. To assume intellectual superiority based on the conclusions one comes to in a religion and philosophy forum is pretty disappointing.

Hagrid, did you not see where this guy was trying to use teleportation as his evidence? The guy clearly has no clue what he's talking about.

What was the topic again? Souls? Really? I'd think it was about a bomb threat with all these heated insults thrown by Mr. Dibble. I'm very sorry I haven't met the expectations for the holder of a degree in computer science. Maybe its because I'm 14! Perhaps I shouldn't have said attempts at teleporting humans, but rather said scientists have rendered it impossible. I don't come from the future (as the universe prevents time travel) and I do know what I'm talking about, as scientists have teleported information from one atom to another instantaneously at a distance of about 1 meter http://www.switched.com/2009/01/26/scientists-succeed-with-teleportation-experiment/
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Quote from:  Edward Gibbon
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.


Quote from:  Albert Einstein
Those who have never failed have never tried anything new.

Quote from:  Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.

Quote from:  Ronald Reagan
You can tell a lot about a fellow's character by the way he eats jelly beans.
oakvale
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« Reply #90 on: July 23, 2012, 07:33:35 pm »
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I'm 14!

Ah!
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« Reply #91 on: July 23, 2012, 11:27:34 pm »
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A Kindle Fire is not a computer. If it is so is an iPad, or even a smartphone.

Of course both those things are computers. Dibble has a degree in computer science and I'm a recent college dropout who was studying for a degree in computer science, so that counts as like 0.2 of a degree.
I'll throw another log on the fire that those things are in fact computers.  As is your DVR, NAT router, parts of your car.....huh...other things.

But I think he was meaning PC when he said computer the first time (seemed kind of clear too)....we're just nitpicking here.
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IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble
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« Reply #92 on: July 24, 2012, 06:20:38 am »
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What was the topic again? Souls? Really? I'd think it was about a bomb threat with all these heated insults thrown by Mr. Dibble. I'm very sorry I haven't met the expectations for the holder of a degree in computer science. Maybe its because I'm 14!

And what, you expect to have us take it easy on you because you're 14? What a lame excuse. At 14 you aren't a child anymore, so I'm not going to excuse nonsensical idiocy in arguments from you. Don't enter into a debate with adults if you're afraid of being treated like an adult. If you would rather be treated like a child and given the kid gloves, this isn't the forum for you.

Quote
Perhaps I shouldn't have said attempts at teleporting humans, but rather said scientists have rendered it impossible. I don't come from the future (as the universe prevents time travel) and I do know what I'm talking about, as scientists have teleported information from one atom to another instantaneously at a distance of about 1 meter http://www.switched.com/2009/01/26/scientists-succeed-with-teleportation-experiment/

No you shouldn't have said attempts at teleporting humans, nor should you have said anything about scientists having "rendered it impossible" in this post. Nothing in the article mentions actual attempts to teleport any living thing, nor does it mention scientists saying teleportation of larger objects or living things would be impossible.
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« Reply #93 on: July 24, 2012, 03:13:19 pm »
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This thread is why we can't have nice things.
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« Reply #94 on: July 24, 2012, 03:33:54 pm »
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Trying to teleport living things leaves the matter behind, too, gunnut.
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« Reply #95 on: July 25, 2012, 04:12:23 am »
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What was the topic again? Souls? Really? I'd think it was about a bomb threat with all these heated insults thrown by Mr. Dibble. I'm very sorry I haven't met the expectations for the holder of a degree in computer science. Maybe its because I'm 14!

And what, you expect to have us take it easy on you because you're 14? What a lame excuse. At 14 you aren't a child anymore, so I'm not going to excuse nonsensical idiocy in arguments from you. Don't enter into a debate with adults if you're afraid of being treated like an adult. If you would rather be treated like a child and given the kid gloves, this isn't the forum for you.

Quote
Perhaps I shouldn't have said attempts at teleporting humans, but rather said scientists have rendered it impossible. I don't come from the future (as the universe prevents time travel) and I do know what I'm talking about, as scientists have teleported information from one atom to another instantaneously at a distance of about 1 meter http://www.switched.com/2009/01/26/scientists-succeed-with-teleportation-experiment/

No you shouldn't have said attempts at teleporting humans, nor should you have said anything about scientists having "rendered it impossible" in this post. Nothing in the article mentions actual attempts to teleport any living thing, nor does it mention scientists saying teleportation of larger objects or living things would be impossible.

I'd tread a little lighter with an adolescent named gun nut, Mr. Dibble.

I  believe I have a soul and many other things that I cannot prove. Of course, I have creeping doubts but overall belief works better for me.
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« Reply #96 on: July 28, 2012, 01:39:08 am »
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To answer my own poll, most definitely.  A soul is what gives our bodies life and intelligence.  Without it, the critical parts of our bodies (i.e. the brain, the heart) cannot function.   

I absolutely have a soul.  Everyone has a soul.  The soul is who I am.  I am not a brain or a beating heart or functioning organs.  I am a living, caring, breathing soul with a heart that cares for other soul's destinations.  When I die, my physical body will stay 6 feet under in the ground and rot away and turn back to dust, but my soul will be taken to heaven to be with its Creator and live forever and be given a new body, a body without pain, without tears, without any kind of sickness or sorrow, a body that will never break down.  Those who have not believed in Christ in the life they were given, will still live forever, but it will be judged and sent to an eternity in a lake of sulphur fire and eternal separation from God.  No one will ever get used to hell and no one will die once in hell, it will be constant excruciating torment and torture that has no end whatsoever.  Once a soul is sent to hell there is no hope for it anymore, it can never get to heaven after that.  The reverse is true, as well.  Once a soul enters heaven, hope is turned to reality, and does not have to worry anymore about being sent to hell.

How do ghosts fit into this?  Do you believe in the possibility that -for some of us- our souls may not immediately go to either heaven or hell, but remain in a sort of earthly purgatory for a variety of reasons, awaiting assistance from the living to move on 'into the light'?     

Well in my ideology there is no heaven or hell. They both exist here on Earth.

To Ride, Rangers, Ride!: Whatever happened to the Christ dying for our sins? Wouldn't the souls be savéd from Hell?

Yes, Christ died for our sins and is the only way to the Father.  There is no other name given among men by which we must be saved.  He doesn't force himself into anyone, though.  That's where the free will comes into play.  Every single human being has a soul, and every soul will live forever.  The decision we make on this earth affects where we will spend eternity.  If we accept Christ and believe that He is the Son of God and died for our sins and rose again the third day, we will live forever with Christ in heaven.  If we do not accept the free gift that was offered to us, we will live forever apart from Christ where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth", that's called Hell.

As far as your belief that Heaven and Hell both exist on Earth.  If this earth is heaven, that's a sad reality.  I believe there is some place much better where moth nor rust break down and destroy and where there is no more sickness, no more pain, no more sorrow, no more dying, no more tears, where the saints of the LORD will have new bodies that will be like Christ.  This body we have now will turn back into dust and be ravaged by worms.  The new body we will receive when we get home will be incorruptible.  And, yes, for Christians, earth is not our home.  Our home is in heaven.  We are citizens of the Kingdom of God, we are passing through and visiting earth, and will one day return home.

Frodo, I do not believe in purgatory.  I believe everyone will decide their destination before this life ends.  If they choose to accept Christ's free gift of salvation, they will be immediately in heaven in the blink of an eye.  Once we close our eyes for the last time on this earth, we will immediately see heaven and bypass the Judgement.  For those who don't accept the free gift of salvation, they will immediately face Judgement and be sent to the Lake of Fire.
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My earlier comment notwithstanding, I do think that the site would be better off if Inks left his position. (The fact that the village idiot has dropped in to express his support for him only confirms this.)
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« Reply #97 on: July 28, 2012, 01:48:28 am »
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I admire people who have such strong faith in the letter of the bible.

I have trouble believing that some people would be denied entry to one form of afterlife based on the actions they commit in this world. I can and do believe in Jesus. I can and do believe in God. But that, to me, is the hardest stumbling block.

Obviously an allknowing God is indirectly responsible for the bible. But we can't know why. We can't know that he didn't maybe include some falsehoods just for the laughs. By the same token, our allpowerful God would have also written the Quran.

Everyone has different moral standards. So why would one human interpretation of divine moral standards preclude someone from heaven?

I believe whatever afterlife exists is universal and is in another universe. The omniverse theory posits that there are varying universes, each with its own set of rules and physics. It is entirely plausible that we could "sink" into another universe after death... into an existence that a person from this universe could not even begin to fathom. But to suggest that some figure sits between the two worlds and judges a soul is just too much for me.
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« Reply #98 on: September 08, 2012, 03:27:45 pm »
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You do not show that two things are identical by showing that one gives rise to the other. You're again ignoring the difference between nomological supervenience and logical identity.

I did not cite your facts as evidence of mind-body dualism. The point is that (contrary to your earlier suggestion) they in no way favor reductive materialism over its rivals.

I'm a reasonably intelligent human being who's seen this debate more than a few times, and I'm not familiar with this terminology -- or sure why you're assuming your audience here is.

A nomological truth is a law that does not express a logical necessity. The laws of electromagnetism and gravity are good examples: though true, there is no logical reason that they had to be true.

As for supervenience: A-properties supervene on B-properties if there cannot be a difference in A-properties without there being a difference in B-properties. (In this case, the A-properties are mental phenomena, while the B-properties are the physical processes that give rise to them.)
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« Reply #99 on: September 20, 2012, 04:18:27 pm »
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Anyone who thinks the soul is a thing needs a dose of Wittgenstein.
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