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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #150 on: June 29, 2012, 09:33:45 am »
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Denying that American Civil war was about Slavery.

While certainly there other issues at stake they all came down to one fundamental point - the strong structural differences in the economy and society of the South vis-a-vis the North and this was fundamentally due to slavery (and the Cotton-Export dependant economy it created).
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As I have noted before 'paradigm shift' is an anagram of 'grasp dim faith'
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« Reply #151 on: June 29, 2012, 09:36:21 am »
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Denying that American Civil war was about Slavery.

While certainly there other issues at stake they all came down to one fundamental point - the strong structural differences in the economy and society of the South vis-a-vis the North and this was fundamentally due to slavery (and the Cotton-Export dependant economy it created).

I'm not getting involved here.
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« Reply #152 on: June 29, 2012, 09:46:45 am »
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Denying that American Civil war was about Slavery.

While certainly there other issues at stake they all came down to one fundamental point - the strong structural differences in the economy and society of the South vis-a-vis the North and this was fundamentally due to slavery (and the Cotton-Export dependant economy it created).

You have a point.

What I was mostly referring to was the way it was taught in like eighth grade history.  A lot less focus on the economic part of the war and more on some sort of notion that the North was full of abolitionists and that the Union Army went down South because Slavery offended them so.

I was mainly pointing out that it wasn't the ideological idea of slavery that was the main issue.  The economic issues of slavery, though, were THE issues of the Civil War.
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« Reply #153 on: June 29, 2012, 11:20:31 am »
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Denying that American Civil war was about Slavery.

While certainly there other issues at stake they all came down to one fundamental point - the strong structural differences in the economy and society of the South vis-a-vis the North and this was fundamentally due to slavery (and the Cotton-Export dependant economy it created).

You have a point.

What I was mostly referring to was the way it was taught in like eighth grade history.  A lot less focus on the economic part of the war and more on some sort of notion that the North was full of abolitionists and that the Union Army went down South because Slavery offended them so.

As someone who just finished 8th grade history, this is pretty much accurate. Abolitionist movement is trumped up, Lincoln is idolized, and rationale portrayed as "South like slavery. Lincoln no like slavery. South no like Lincoln. South leave. Lincoln decide to save black people. Lincoln's people burn Atlanta."
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« Reply #154 on: June 29, 2012, 11:28:18 am »
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Denying that American Civil war was about Slavery.

While certainly there other issues at stake they all came down to one fundamental point - the strong structural differences in the economy and society of the South vis-a-vis the North and this was fundamentally due to slavery (and the Cotton-Export dependant economy it created).

You have a point.

What I was mostly referring to was the way it was taught in like eighth grade history.  A lot less focus on the economic part of the war and more on some sort of notion that the North was full of abolitionists and that the Union Army went down South because Slavery offended them so.

As someone who just finished 8th grade history, this is pretty much accurate. Abolitionist movement is trumped up, Lincoln is idolized, and rationale portrayed as "South like slavery. Lincoln no like slavery. South no like Lincoln. South leave. Lincoln decide to save black people. Lincoln's people burn Atlanta."

I remember a discussion about this in a history class. It was more like

South evil, north nice, Davis bad man, Lincoln like God, south like Nazis, north help south, reconstruction a success.
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« Reply #155 on: June 29, 2012, 12:16:42 pm »
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Denying that American Civil war was about Slavery.

While certainly there other issues at stake they all came down to one fundamental point - the strong structural differences in the economy and society of the South vis-a-vis the North and this was fundamentally due to slavery (and the Cotton-Export dependant economy it created).

You have a point.

What I was mostly referring to was the way it was taught in like eighth grade history.  A lot less focus on the economic part of the war and more on some sort of notion that the North was full of abolitionists and that the Union Army went down South because Slavery offended them so.

As someone who just finished 8th grade history, this is pretty much accurate. Abolitionist movement is trumped up, Lincoln is idolized, and rationale portrayed as "South like slavery. Lincoln no like slavery. South no like Lincoln. South leave. Lincoln decide to save black people. Lincoln's people burn Atlanta."

I remember a discussion about this in a history class. It was more like

South evil, north nice, Davis bad man, Lincoln like God, south like Nazis, north help south, reconstruction a success.

We may have had a southern editor for our textbook. We got a question like "How was the South like the Patriots in the American Revolution?"
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« Reply #156 on: June 29, 2012, 12:29:03 pm »
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For what it's worth, an important source for the idea of preserving slavery being the lion's share of the Southern ruling class's motivations for secession was the fact that the Southern ruling class, when asked at the time about their motivations for secession, said that preserving slavery was the lion's share. Lincoln of course was a politician, and while he may verily have been Honest Abe he was so purely in comparison to other politicians.
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« Reply #157 on: June 29, 2012, 04:18:07 pm »
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While going through some complaints at work today, I fell across something which made me facepalm:

Quote
Je suis par ailleurs très inquiet de la récente décision du gouvernement fédéral d'abandonner la version complète des formulaires de recensement. S'agit-il là d'un autre moyen détourné de camoufler les effets pervers de la politique d'immigration à portes ouvertes sur la vitalité linguistique des communautés francophones à la grandeur du pays? Nous le craignons.

"I am very concerned by the recent decision of the federal government to abandon the complete version of the census forms. Is this another means of hiding the perverse effect of the open doors immigration policy on the linguistic vitality of Francophone communities across the country? We fear that it is"

Dear Lord. TEH IMMIGRANTSZ ARE DESTROYING TEH COUNTRY AND TEH ZOMGZ FRENCH LINGUAGE!111
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« Reply #158 on: June 29, 2012, 06:30:38 pm »
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While going through some complaints at work today, I fell across something which made me facepalm:

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Je suis par ailleurs très inquiet de la récente décision du gouvernement fédéral d'abandonner la version complète des formulaires de recensement. S'agit-il là d'un autre moyen détourné de camoufler les effets pervers de la politique d'immigration à portes ouvertes sur la vitalité linguistique des communautés francophones à la grandeur du pays? Nous le craignons.

"I am very concerned by the recent decision of the federal government to abandon the complete version of the census forms. Is this another means of hiding the perverse effect of the open doors immigration policy on the linguistic vitality of Francophone communities across the country? We fear that it is"

Dear Lord. TEH IMMIGRANTSZ ARE DESTROYING TEH COUNTRY AND TEH ZOMGZ FRENCH LINGUAGE!111

Why are European neo-Nazis so much more influential (from my point of view, at least) than the Americans? Golden Dawn, the National Front, the BNP, the Sweden Democrats; the American Nazi Party can't hold a candle to them.
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There is a lot of humor to be mined from this as the mind of LBJ in the body of an 18 month old baby girl is quite hilarious.

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« Reply #159 on: June 29, 2012, 07:23:03 pm »
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While going through some complaints at work today, I fell across something which made me facepalm:

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Je suis par ailleurs très inquiet de la récente décision du gouvernement fédéral d'abandonner la version complète des formulaires de recensement. S'agit-il là d'un autre moyen détourné de camoufler les effets pervers de la politique d'immigration à portes ouvertes sur la vitalité linguistique des communautés francophones à la grandeur du pays? Nous le craignons.

"I am very concerned by the recent decision of the federal government to abandon the complete version of the census forms. Is this another means of hiding the perverse effect of the open doors immigration policy on the linguistic vitality of Francophone communities across the country? We fear that it is"

Dear Lord. TEH IMMIGRANTSZ ARE DESTROYING TEH COUNTRY AND TEH ZOMGZ FRENCH LINGUAGE!111

Why are European neo-Nazis so much more influential (from my point of view, at least) than the Americans? Golden Dawn, the National Front, the BNP, the Sweden Democrats; the American Nazi Party can't hold a candle to them.

Hashemite's Canadian.
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« Reply #160 on: June 29, 2012, 07:32:30 pm »
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While going through some complaints at work today, I fell across something which made me facepalm:

Quote
Je suis par ailleurs très inquiet de la récente décision du gouvernement fédéral d'abandonner la version complète des formulaires de recensement. S'agit-il là d'un autre moyen détourné de camoufler les effets pervers de la politique d'immigration à portes ouvertes sur la vitalité linguistique des communautés francophones à la grandeur du pays? Nous le craignons.

"I am very concerned by the recent decision of the federal government to abandon the complete version of the census forms. Is this another means of hiding the perverse effect of the open doors immigration policy on the linguistic vitality of Francophone communities across the country? We fear that it is"

Dear Lord. TEH IMMIGRANTSZ ARE DESTROYING TEH COUNTRY AND TEH ZOMGZ FRENCH LINGUAGE!111

Why are European neo-Nazis so much more influential (from my point of view, at least) than the Americans? Golden Dawn, the National Front, the BNP, the Sweden Democrats; the American Nazi Party can't hold a candle to them.
I suppose that's one reason to be thankful of the two-party system. No nazis or communists gaining traction.
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« Reply #161 on: June 29, 2012, 07:39:24 pm »
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"Personal Responsibility", which so often means that those less fortunate should be punished.
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« Reply #162 on: June 29, 2012, 07:44:04 pm »
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I'm generally repulsed by the concept of whittling down complex, intertwined, fluid issues into often entirely nonsensical sound bites for commercials and hustling. Though I guess in our age of drowning ourselves in information, the US continues to become more and more complicated by its over-simplification and "efficiency" fixation. What bothers me more is the adoption of these cheap marketing lines as actual legitimate conversation. I guess that's the point at this point. I don't know that I could pick any particularly irritating ones because of that.
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« Reply #163 on: June 30, 2012, 04:26:24 am »
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While going through some complaints at work today, I fell across something which made me facepalm:

Quote
Je suis par ailleurs très inquiet de la récente décision du gouvernement fédéral d'abandonner la version complète des formulaires de recensement. S'agit-il là d'un autre moyen détourné de camoufler les effets pervers de la politique d'immigration à portes ouvertes sur la vitalité linguistique des communautés francophones à la grandeur du pays? Nous le craignons.

"I am very concerned by the recent decision of the federal government to abandon the complete version of the census forms. Is this another means of hiding the perverse effect of the open doors immigration policy on the linguistic vitality of Francophone communities across the country? We fear that it is"

Dear Lord. TEH IMMIGRANTSZ ARE DESTROYING TEH COUNTRY AND TEH ZOMGZ FRENCH LINGUAGE!111

Why are European neo-Nazis so much more influential (from my point of view, at least) than the Americans? Golden Dawn, the National Front, the BNP, the Sweden Democrats; the American Nazi Party can't hold a candle to them.

The National Front, the BNP and the Sweden Democrats might be disgusting pieces of trash, but they are not, properly speaking, neo-nazis. There might not be any outright far-right party in America, but is the GOP's right-wing (Bachmann, Palin, Beck, etc) any less nutty than FN or BNP politicians ?
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« Reply #164 on: June 30, 2012, 04:37:18 am »
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While going through some complaints at work today, I fell across something which made me facepalm:

Quote
Je suis par ailleurs très inquiet de la récente décision du gouvernement fédéral d'abandonner la version complète des formulaires de recensement. S'agit-il là d'un autre moyen détourné de camoufler les effets pervers de la politique d'immigration à portes ouvertes sur la vitalité linguistique des communautés francophones à la grandeur du pays? Nous le craignons.

"I am very concerned by the recent decision of the federal government to abandon the complete version of the census forms. Is this another means of hiding the perverse effect of the open doors immigration policy on the linguistic vitality of Francophone communities across the country? We fear that it is"

Dear Lord. TEH IMMIGRANTSZ ARE DESTROYING TEH COUNTRY AND TEH ZOMGZ FRENCH LINGUAGE!111

Why are European neo-Nazis so much more influential (from my point of view, at least) than the Americans? Golden Dawn, the National Front, the BNP, the Sweden Democrats; the American Nazi Party can't hold a candle to them.

The National Front, the BNP and the Sweden Democrats might be disgusting pieces of trash, but they are not, properly speaking, neo-nazis. There might not be any outright far-right party in America, but is the GOP's right-wing (Bachmann, Palin, Beck, etc) any less nutty than FN or BNP politicians ?

Well said. Now can we get along condemning the far-left as well. Jean-Luc Melenchon and his ilk.
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« Reply #165 on: June 30, 2012, 05:16:24 am »
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While going through some complaints at work today, I fell across something which made me facepalm:

Quote
Je suis par ailleurs très inquiet de la récente décision du gouvernement fédéral d'abandonner la version complète des formulaires de recensement. S'agit-il là d'un autre moyen détourné de camoufler les effets pervers de la politique d'immigration à portes ouvertes sur la vitalité linguistique des communautés francophones à la grandeur du pays? Nous le craignons.

"I am very concerned by the recent decision of the federal government to abandon the complete version of the census forms. Is this another means of hiding the perverse effect of the open doors immigration policy on the linguistic vitality of Francophone communities across the country? We fear that it is"

Dear Lord. TEH IMMIGRANTSZ ARE DESTROYING TEH COUNTRY AND TEH ZOMGZ FRENCH LINGUAGE!111

Why are European neo-Nazis so much more influential (from my point of view, at least) than the Americans? Golden Dawn, the National Front, the BNP, the Sweden Democrats; the American Nazi Party can't hold a candle to them.

The National Front, the BNP and the Sweden Democrats might be disgusting pieces of trash, but they are not, properly speaking, neo-nazis. There might not be any outright far-right party in America, but is the GOP's right-wing (Bachmann, Palin, Beck, etc) any less nutty than FN or BNP politicians ?

Well said. Now can we get along condemning the far-left as well. Jean-Luc Melenchon and his ilk.

Not really, since Mélenchon isn't far-left under any meaningful definition. The French far-left polled 1.7% in last elections.
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HashCAN     americans saw the EP elections and people cringing at Europeans being morons and electing Nazis; so they massively said "NO" and decided to prove that they're still bigger morons



"A reformist is someone who realizes that, when you bang your head on a wall, it's the head that breaks rather than the wall."

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« Reply #166 on: June 30, 2012, 05:43:27 am »
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Jean-Luc Mélenchon is a socialist republican and historical materialist, inspired primarily by Jean Jaurès (the founder of French republican socialism) and employing Marxian analysis to understand the crisis of market capitalism.
 




Jean-Luc Mélenchon (right) with Olivier Besancenot (left) and José Bové (centre) at a meeting to rally support for the "No" vote in the European Constitution referendum of 2005.
Previously a defender of European federalism, Jean-Luc Mélenchon has renounced that political commitment, declaring that "the European Union is no longer a solution but a problem, because economic liberalism has totally corrupted the institution and makes it impossible to achieve the democratic change needed in the EU, all power belonging to technocrats with no popular legitimacy." For this reason, he is for the establishment of a different, democratic, united, and cooperative Europe, and is opposed to the Lisbon Treaty as well as questioning the independence of the European Central Bank.
 
Based on his experiences in South America, Jean-Luc Mélenchon, like Hugo Chavez and Evo Morales,[dubious – discuss][improper synthesis?] favours a "citizens' revolution" (révolution citoyenne), drawing additionally on ideas stemming from the French Revolution and the Paris Commune, and a new strategy that respects the democratic process while seeking to win elections in order to change the constitution. This "citizens' revolution" should lead to a reversal of the current division of wealth held by capital, represented by shareholders, and the working class (understood in the broad sense of anyone who actually works to earn money directly). Additional goals include a new constitution that will initiate a 6th French Republic in which the President will have less power and Parliament more, increase wages, a public bank created by nationalizing the private banks, democratization through the establishment of new rights for employees allowing them to develop cooperatives, the nationalization of large corporations, environmental planning, an exit from NATO, an end to the war in Afghanistan, and peace in the Middle East through the creation of a Palestinian state. Jean-Luc Mélenchon also insists on the importance of "popular involvement" through public referendums on any essential subject. He expressed his support for even more secularization of the French society and for the legality of same-sex marriage and euthanasia.

This is not far left?
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« Reply #167 on: June 30, 2012, 06:38:11 am »
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Jean-Luc Mélenchon is a socialist republican and historical materialist, inspired primarily by Jean Jaurès (the founder of French republican socialism) and employing Marxian analysis to understand the crisis of market capitalism.

Not really. Mélenchon certainly does not qualify as your standard orthodox marxist. As for Jaurès, he's an alleged source of inspiration for the French left as a whole.


Quote
Jean-Luc Mélenchon (right) with Olivier Besancenot (left) and José Bové (centre) at a meeting to rally support for the "No" vote in the European Constitution referendum of 2005.
Previously a defender of European federalism, Jean-Luc Mélenchon has renounced that political commitment, declaring that "the European Union is no longer a solution but a problem, because economic liberalism has totally corrupted the institution and makes it impossible to achieve the democratic change needed in the EU, all power belonging to technocrats with no popular legitimacy." For this reason, he is for the establishment of a different, democratic, united, and cooperative Europe, and is opposed to the Lisbon Treaty as well as questioning the independence of the European Central Bank.

Not at all.


Quote
Based on his experiences in South America, Jean-Luc Mélenchon, like Hugo Chavez and Evo Morales,[dubious – discuss][improper synthesis?] favours a "citizens' revolution" (révolution citoyenne), drawing additionally on ideas stemming from the French Revolution and the Paris Commune, and a new strategy that respects the democratic process while seeking to win elections in order to change the constitution.

That's a bit nutty, but overall no. The last part of the sentence shows that this is basically the traditional goal of Europe's radical-left parties.


Quote
This "citizens' revolution" should lead to a reversal of the current division of wealth held by capital, represented by shareholders, and the working class (understood in the broad sense of anyone who actually works to earn money directly).

Pretty bland left-wing discourse, nothing really far-lefty.


Quote
Additional goals include a new constitution that will initiate a 6th French Republic in which the President will have less power and Parliament more

Traditional pipe dream of the French left. No People's Republic of France in sight, as you can see.


Quote
increase wages, a public bank created by nationalizing the private banks, democratization through the establishment of new rights for employees allowing them to develop cooperatives, the nationalization of large corporations, environmental planning, an exit from NATO, an end to the war in Afghanistan, and peace in the Middle East through the creation of a Palestinian state.

Not in any way.


Quote
Jean-Luc Mélenchon also insists on the importance of "popular involvement" through public referendums on any essential subject.

Like in Italy and Switzerland, not exactly socialist countries.


Quote
He expressed his support for even more secularization of the French society and for the legality of same-sex marriage and euthanasia.

No.


Add to this that Mélenchon's true goal, like that of typical radical left parties in Europe (see the Danish socialists for example) is to influence their bigger center-left allies into taking more left-wing stances and to participate to the elaboration of government policy. Add the fact that he is a former PS cabinet minister. Add the fact that he is allied with the PCF, a fairly bland party made of established notables with no intent at playing the extremist card. Add to that that the actual far-left (LO and NPA) loathes him with a passion. So, in short, no, he's not far-left.
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« Reply #168 on: June 30, 2012, 08:03:59 am »
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So he is a nutty leftist, just not a nutty far-leftist?
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« Reply #169 on: June 30, 2012, 08:08:49 am »
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So he is a nutty leftist, just not a nutty far-leftist?

Basically. When you know actual French far-leftists, you can easily see the difference.
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HashCAN     americans saw the EP elections and people cringing at Europeans being morons and electing Nazis; so they massively said "NO" and decided to prove that they're still bigger morons



"A reformist is someone who realizes that, when you bang your head on a wall, it's the head that breaks rather than the wall."

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« Reply #170 on: June 30, 2012, 08:58:07 am »
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So he is a nutty leftist, just not a nutty far-leftist?

Basically. When you know actual French far-leftists, you can easily see the difference.

Yes but France is several notches to the left of almost every other developed western nation with the exception of the Scandinavian states. Although the difference is their political discourse seems competent, whereas in France it seems like half of their politicians are still stuck in the 1790's. Melenchon would be considered a far-leftist outside of France. Even the BBC, a bastion of liberal-leftism, calls him a far-leftist, as to other such bastions like the Guardian.
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« Reply #171 on: June 30, 2012, 09:09:46 am »
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I would join in this argument, but considering who we're arguing against, I think I prefer to ram my head into the wall.
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« Reply #172 on: June 30, 2012, 09:14:27 am »
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I would join in this argument, but considering who we're arguing against, I think I prefer to ram my head into the wall.

Aw I'm not that dum Sad
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« Reply #173 on: June 30, 2012, 05:11:21 pm »
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So he is a nutty leftist, just not a nutty far-leftist?

Basically. When you know actual French far-leftists, you can easily see the difference.

Yes but France is several notches to the left of almost every other developed western nation with the exception of the Scandinavian states. Although the difference is their political discourse seems competent, whereas in France it seems like half of their politicians are still stuck in the 1790's. Melenchon would be considered a far-leftist outside of France. Even the BBC, a bastion of liberal-leftism, calls him a far-leftist, as to other such bastions like the Guardian.

They also think Syriza's far-left, so they're not exactly the best judges. And France has had 2 left-wing Presidents since the war, hardly "several notches to the left of almost every other developed western nation".
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« Reply #174 on: June 30, 2012, 09:19:13 pm »
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So he is a nutty leftist, just not a nutty far-leftist?

Basically. When you know actual French far-leftists, you can easily see the difference.

Yes but France is several notches to the left of almost every other developed western nation with the exception of the Scandinavian states. Although the difference is their political discourse seems competent, whereas in France it seems like half of their politicians are still stuck in the 1790's. Melenchon would be considered a far-leftist outside of France. Even the BBC, a bastion of liberal-leftism, calls him a far-leftist, as to other such bastions like the Guardian.

They also think Syriza's far-left, so they're not exactly the best judges. And France has had 2 left-wing Presidents since the war, hardly "several notches to the left of almost every other developed western nation".

France is the only Western country I can think of where opebo would be taken seriously and considered within the mainstream of political discourse.
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