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Author Topic: talking points that piss you off  (Read 7029 times)
Speaker Dereich
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« Reply #175 on: June 30, 2012, 11:39:06 pm »
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So he is a nutty leftist, just not a nutty far-leftist?

Basically. When you know actual French far-leftists, you can easily see the difference.

Yes but France is several notches to the left of almost every other developed western nation with the exception of the Scandinavian states. Although the difference is their political discourse seems competent, whereas in France it seems like half of their politicians are still stuck in the 1790's. Melenchon would be considered a far-leftist outside of France. Even the BBC, a bastion of liberal-leftism, calls him a far-leftist, as to other such bastions like the Guardian.

They also think Syriza's far-left, so they're not exactly the best judges. And France has had 2 left-wing Presidents since the war, hardly "several notches to the left of almost every other developed western nation".

Well, to be fair, within Greece's political system SYRIZA and the KKE were the far left until this year. They were certainly quite a bit to the left of the mainstream PASOK and DIMAR. And don't use that "only 2 leftist presidents" excuse, major leftist proposals like the 35 hour work week were passed and never repealed, even with Presidents from the French Right.
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« Reply #176 on: July 01, 2012, 01:07:23 am »
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So he is a nutty leftist, just not a nutty far-leftist?

Basically. When you know actual French far-leftists, you can easily see the difference.

Yes but France is several notches to the left of almost every other developed western nation with the exception of the Scandinavian states. Although the difference is their political discourse seems competent, whereas in France it seems like half of their politicians are still stuck in the 1790's. Melenchon would be considered a far-leftist outside of France. Even the BBC, a bastion of liberal-leftism, calls him a far-leftist, as to other such bastions like the Guardian.
By that logic dailymail is a center newspaper?
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« Reply #177 on: July 01, 2012, 02:32:46 am »
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So he is a nutty leftist, just not a nutty far-leftist?

Basically. When you know actual French far-leftists, you can easily see the difference.

Yes but France is several notches to the left of almost every other developed western nation with the exception of the Scandinavian states. Although the difference is their political discourse seems competent, whereas in France it seems like half of their politicians are still stuck in the 1790's. Melenchon would be considered a far-leftist outside of France. Even the BBC, a bastion of liberal-leftism, calls him a far-leftist, as to other such bastions like the Guardian.
By that logic dailymail is a center newspaper?

Nope. It is very right-wing. But then the Guardian is incredibly left-wing. As for the 'Independent'. The title makes me want to laugh.
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« Reply #178 on: July 01, 2012, 03:43:14 am »
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So he is a nutty leftist, just not a nutty far-leftist?

Basically. When you know actual French far-leftists, you can easily see the difference.

Yes but France is several notches to the left of almost every other developed western nation with the exception of the Scandinavian states. Although the difference is their political discourse seems competent, whereas in France it seems like half of their politicians are still stuck in the 1790's. Melenchon would be considered a far-leftist outside of France. Even the BBC, a bastion of liberal-leftism, calls him a far-leftist, as to other such bastions like the Guardian.

They also think Syriza's far-left, so they're not exactly the best judges. And France has had 2 left-wing Presidents since the war, hardly "several notches to the left of almost every other developed western nation".

France is the only Western country I can think of where opebo would be taken seriously and considered within the mainstream of political discourse.

I'm really impressed by your deep knowledge and perfect understanding of French politics.
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« Reply #179 on: July 01, 2012, 04:26:52 am »
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So he is a nutty leftist, just not a nutty far-leftist?

Basically. When you know actual French far-leftists, you can easily see the difference.

Yes but France is several notches to the left of almost every other developed western nation with the exception of the Scandinavian states. Although the difference is their political discourse seems competent, whereas in France it seems like half of their politicians are still stuck in the 1790's. Melenchon would be considered a far-leftist outside of France. Even the BBC, a bastion of liberal-leftism, calls him a far-leftist, as to other such bastions like the Guardian.
By that logic dailymail is a center newspaper?

Nope. It is very right-wing. But then the Guardian is incredibly left-wing. As for the 'Independent'. The title makes me want to laugh.
The problem is that your classifying BBC as a left-wing paper, that's like saying CNN is left-wing.
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« Reply #180 on: July 01, 2012, 04:50:52 am »
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So he is a nutty leftist, just not a nutty far-leftist?

Basically. When you know actual French far-leftists, you can easily see the difference.

Yes but France is several notches to the left of almost every other developed western nation with the exception of the Scandinavian states. Although the difference is their political discourse seems competent, whereas in France it seems like half of their politicians are still stuck in the 1790's. Melenchon would be considered a far-leftist outside of France. Even the BBC, a bastion of liberal-leftism, calls him a far-leftist, as to other such bastions like the Guardian.
By that logic dailymail is a center newspaper?

Nope. It is very right-wing. But then the Guardian is incredibly left-wing. As for the 'Independent'. The title makes me want to laugh.
The problem is that your classifying BBC as a left-wing paper, that's like saying CNN is left-wing.

But even its own commentators own up to its left wing bias. For instance Andrew Marr said "The BBC is not impartial or neutral. It's a publicly funded, urban organisation with an abnormally large number of young people, ethnic minorities, and gay people. It has a liberal bias, not so much a party-political bias. It is better expressed as a cultural liberal bias."

I don't know much about CNN, but I thought it was centrist.
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« Reply #181 on: July 01, 2012, 05:25:48 am »
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So he is a nutty leftist, just not a nutty far-leftist?

Basically. When you know actual French far-leftists, you can easily see the difference.

Yes but France is several notches to the left of almost every other developed western nation with the exception of the Scandinavian states. Although the difference is their political discourse seems competent, whereas in France it seems like half of their politicians are still stuck in the 1790's. Melenchon would be considered a far-leftist outside of France. Even the BBC, a bastion of liberal-leftism, calls him a far-leftist, as to other such bastions like the Guardian.
By that logic dailymail is a center newspaper?

Nope. It is very right-wing. But then the Guardian is incredibly left-wing. As for the 'Independent'. The title makes me want to laugh.
The problem is that your classifying BBC as a left-wing paper, that's like saying CNN is left-wing.

But even its own commentators own up to its left wing bias. For instance Andrew Marr said "The BBC is not impartial or neutral. It's a publicly funded, urban organisation with an abnormally large number of young people, ethnic minorities, and gay people. It has a liberal bias, not so much a party-political bias. It is better expressed as a cultural liberal bias."

I don't know much about CNN, but I thought it was centrist.

Even if we are to accept that the BBC is "culturally liberal", that is not the same thing as left wing.
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« Reply #182 on: July 01, 2012, 08:02:07 am »
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Obviously this thread is a disaster, but with regards to France it should be pointed out that a certain disconnect between rhetoric and reality is a traditional (the most traditional?) feature of political language there. In any case, the existence of a formerly viable hard left political tradition does not make the entire country so inclined...

But then the Guardian is incredibly left-wing.

Hahaha, no.
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« Reply #183 on: July 01, 2012, 08:10:33 am »
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Obviously this thread is a disaster, but with regards to France it should be pointed out that a certain disconnect between rhetoric and reality is a traditional (the most traditional?) feature of political language there. In any case, the existence of a formerly viable hard left political tradition does not make the entire country so inclined...

But then the Guardian is incredibly left-wing.

Hahaha, no.

Didn't they endorse the Lib Dems? Obviously far-left.
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« Reply #184 on: July 01, 2012, 09:09:01 am »
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Obviously this thread is a disaster, but with regards to France it should be pointed out that a certain disconnect between rhetoric and reality is a traditional (the most traditional?) feature of political language there. In any case, the existence of a formerly viable hard left political tradition does not make the entire country so inclined...

Don't destroy their fantasies with your facts!
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« Reply #185 on: July 01, 2012, 10:46:34 am »
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Obviously this thread is a disaster, but with regards to France it should be pointed out that a certain disconnect between rhetoric and reality is a traditional (the most traditional?) feature of political language there. In any case, the existence of a formerly viable hard left political tradition does not make the entire country so inclined...

But then the Guardian is incredibly left-wing.

Hahaha, no.

Didn't they endorse the Lib Dems? Obviously far-left.

Perhaps I should have phrased it differently, but anyone denying that the Guardian has a leftist bent is obviously living in a dreamworld. I wouldn't call the Lib Dems far-left, but their claim that they are centrist is just laughable.
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« Reply #186 on: July 01, 2012, 11:54:21 am »
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Obviously this thread is a disaster, but with regards to France it should be pointed out that a certain disconnect between rhetoric and reality is a traditional (the most traditional?) feature of political language there. In any case, the existence of a formerly viable hard left political tradition does not make the entire country so inclined...

But then the Guardian is incredibly left-wing.

Hahaha, no.

Didn't they endorse the Lib Dems? Obviously far-left.

Perhaps I should have phrased it differently, but anyone denying that the Guardian has a leftist bent is obviously living in a dreamworld. I wouldn't call the Lib Dems far-left, but their claim that they are centrist is just laughable.

Clearly the Lib Dems are liberal. I don't know how a British person becomes so Americanized as to come to believe that liberalism and leftism are the same thing.
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« Reply #187 on: July 01, 2012, 12:15:10 pm »
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Obviously this thread is a disaster, but with regards to France it should be pointed out that a certain disconnect between rhetoric and reality is a traditional (the most traditional?) feature of political language there. In any case, the existence of a formerly viable hard left political tradition does not make the entire country so inclined...

But then the Guardian is incredibly left-wing.

Hahaha, no.

Didn't they endorse the Lib Dems? Obviously far-left.

Perhaps I should have phrased it differently, but anyone denying that the Guardian has a leftist bent is obviously living in a dreamworld. I wouldn't call the Lib Dems far-left, but their claim that they are centrist is just laughable.

Clearly the Lib Dems are liberal. I don't know how a British person becomes so Americanized as to come to believe that liberalism and leftism are the same thing.

I didn't say that they were. But the Liberal-Democrats are emphatically not "liberal" certainly economically, where they are similar to Labour, wanting to avoid public spending cuts, aside of course from in defence. They are probably the most socially liberal major party, which also puts them on the centre-left. Their main distinction with Labour is their woolen themes of localism and decentralization, as well as a bigger emphasis on environmentalism. There main pretense to being centrist is that they are not particularly unpopular in the North or South (they are infact unpopular in both). This largely extends from their positioning themselves as the party of the centre during the ideologically extreme 1980's (they were far less left wing than Labour, but were still centre-left).
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« Reply #188 on: July 01, 2012, 12:24:07 pm »
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I didn't say that they were. But the Liberal-Democrats are emphatically not "liberal" certainly economically, where they are similar to Labour, wanting to avoid public spending cuts, aside of course from in defence.

On which planet do you live on at the moment?
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« Reply #189 on: July 01, 2012, 12:39:31 pm »
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I didn't say that they were. But the Liberal-Democrats are emphatically not "liberal" certainly economically, where they are similar to Labour, wanting to avoid public spending cuts, aside of course from in defence.

On which planet do you live on at the moment?

I'm not talking about the actions of the Party in power, where they are the junior partner, but about their general ideology, as represented in the main by people like Vince Cable and Simon Hughes. They have been more like this since the early 2000's, when they started getting disillusioned Labour supporters due to the Iraq War, and shifted further to the left on public spending in order to help maintain this support.
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« Reply #190 on: July 01, 2012, 12:45:12 pm »
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Obviously this thread is a disaster, but with regards to France it should be pointed out that a certain disconnect between rhetoric and reality is a traditional (the most traditional?) feature of political language there. In any case, the existence of a formerly viable hard left political tradition does not make the entire country so inclined...

This is the soundest post made on this argument so far.
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« Reply #191 on: July 01, 2012, 06:36:30 pm »
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Obviously this thread is a disaster, but with regards to France it should be pointed out that a certain disconnect between rhetoric and reality is a traditional (the most traditional?) feature of political language there. In any case, the existence of a formerly viable hard left political tradition does not make the entire country so inclined...

But then the Guardian is incredibly left-wing.

Hahaha, no.

Didn't they endorse the Lib Dems? Obviously far-left.

Perhaps I should have phrased it differently, but anyone denying that the Guardian has a leftist bent is obviously living in a dreamworld. I wouldn't call the Lib Dems far-left, but their claim that they are centrist is just laughable.

Yes, because the Liberal Democrats is an emphatically center-right party, following a center-right agenda.
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« Reply #192 on: July 02, 2012, 11:34:24 am »
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Obviously this thread is a disaster, but with regards to France it should be pointed out that a certain disconnect between rhetoric and reality is a traditional (the most traditional?) feature of political language there. In any case, the existence of a formerly viable hard left political tradition does not make the entire country so inclined...

But then the Guardian is incredibly left-wing.

Hahaha, no.

Didn't they endorse the Lib Dems? Obviously far-left.

Perhaps I should have phrased it differently, but anyone denying that the Guardian has a leftist bent is obviously living in a dreamworld. I wouldn't call the Lib Dems far-left, but their claim that they are centrist is just laughable.

Yes, because the Liberal Democrats is an emphatically center-right party, following a center-right agenda.

Where is the evidence for this. You do realize that the "cuts" would be working far more effectively if it weren't for the Liberal-Democrats watering them down at every possible stage.
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« Reply #193 on: July 02, 2012, 02:45:22 pm »
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Could we just lock this thread? This has turned into a total and utter disaster and train wreck, courtesy of our latest stupid troll.
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« Reply #194 on: July 02, 2012, 02:59:21 pm »
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or you could you know, move on and post something else on the thread.
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That has got to be one of the most retarded proposals I have read on this forum.

Don't worry, I'm sure more will crop up shortly.
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« Reply #195 on: July 02, 2012, 03:28:11 pm »
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Could we just lock this thread? This has turned into a total and utter disaster and train wreck, courtesy of our latest stupid troll.

I fail to see how my posts are stupid and trollish. I don't think of your left-wing posts as stupid or trollish, rather I just disagree with them.
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« Reply #196 on: July 04, 2012, 11:30:28 am »
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You're clearly worse.
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« Reply #197 on: February 19, 2013, 12:46:55 am »
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This was actually an interesting thread despite some weird tangents including some by trolls.

Here's an addition I can't believe wasn't mentioned: Anything about "Reagan Democrats". Words can not describe how much of a stupid f**king term this is. And perhaps the only thing more idiotic than it is some of the areas that it's used to describe. Anyone who says this basically should be considered of having no credibility whatsoever, period.
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« Reply #198 on: February 19, 2013, 12:48:51 am »
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This was actually an interesting thread despite some weird tangents including some by trolls.

Here's an addition I can't believe wasn't mentioned: Anything about "Reagan Democrats". Words can not describe how much of a stupid f**king term this is. And perhaps the only thing more idiotic than it is some of the areas that it's used to describe. Anyone who says this basically should be considered of having no credibility whatsoever, period.

Unless you mean Reagan supporters who are now Democrats, but yeah, that's not what they mean.
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« Reply #199 on: February 19, 2013, 01:16:56 am »
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Obviously this thread is a disaster, but with regards to France it should be pointed out that a certain disconnect between rhetoric and reality is a traditional (the most traditional?) feature of political language there. In any case, the existence of a formerly viable hard left political tradition does not make the entire country so inclined...

But then the Guardian is incredibly left-wing.

Hahaha, no.

Didn't they endorse the Lib Dems? Obviously far-left.

Perhaps I should have phrased it differently, but anyone denying that the Guardian has a leftist bent is obviously living in a dreamworld. I wouldn't call the Lib Dems far-left, but their claim that they are centrist is just laughable.
Well, they are right-wing.
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