Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
August 31, 2014, 03:19:58 am
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Atlas Hardware Upgrade complete October 13, 2013.

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  General Politics
| |-+  Individual Politics (Moderators: Grad Students are the Worst, Torie, Sheriff Buford TX Justice)
| | |-+  Opinion of Socialism
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Print
Poll
Question: Whats your opinion of Socialism?
FI   -30 (40.5%)
HI   -21 (28.4%)
Too diverse to categorize as one ideology   -23 (31.1%)
Dunno   -0 (0%)
Show Pie Chart
Total Voters: 74

Author Topic: Opinion of Socialism  (Read 3291 times)
Хahar
Xahar
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 38846
Bangladesh


View Profile
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2012, 09:56:59 am »
Ignore

Like capitalism, it is a terrible idea when brought to all its logical conclusions, and a very good one when conceived with some pragmatism.

You still don't understand what socialism is.

Here I was going to say that he doesn't understand what capitalism is. Capitalism doesn't really have "logical conclusions."

Either way, the positioning of capitalism and socialism as though they're equivalent and diametrically opposed is incorrect.
Logged

Update reading list

The idea of parodying the preceding Atlasian's postings is laughable, of course, but not for reasons one might expect.
Robb the Survivor
Antonio V
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 30613
France


View Profile
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2012, 10:25:19 am »
Ignore

I have never said that. "Diametrically opposite" obviously makes no sense in the context of ideologies.
Logged



Robb of the House Stark, First of his Name, Lord of Winterfell and King in the North



Quote from: IRC
22:15   ComradeSibboleth   this is all extremely terrible and in all respects absolutely fycking dire.

"A reformist is someone who realizes that, when you bang your head on a wall, it's the head that breaks rather than the wall."

Peppino, from the movie Baaria
Sibboleth
Realpolitik
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 56425
Saint Helena


View Profile WWW
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2012, 10:42:28 am »
Ignore

Learning to let go of ideology is perhaps the greatest lesson I've learned, it allows me to think freely (kind of like atheism really).

If you actually think that... then... well... I'm afraid that I have some very bad news for you.
Logged

"I have become entangled in my own data, and my conclusion stands in direct contradiction to the initial idea from which I started. Proceeding from unlimited freedom, I end with unlimited despotism. I will add, however, that there can be no solution of the social formula except mine."
Sibboleth
Realpolitik
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 56425
Saint Helena


View Profile WWW
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2012, 10:47:17 am »
Ignore

I have never said that. "Diametrically opposite" obviously makes no sense in the context of ideologies.

Capitalism is most definitely not an ideology, unless you're writing from a gloriously archaic Marxist point of view...
Logged

"I have become entangled in my own data, and my conclusion stands in direct contradiction to the initial idea from which I started. Proceeding from unlimited freedom, I end with unlimited despotism. I will add, however, that there can be no solution of the social formula except mine."
Beet
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15907


View Profile
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2012, 10:50:20 am »
Ignore

Are we talking about actual Socialism and not some American GOP boogeyman? Well in that case, then while some Socialist parties around the world are good, from an economic standpoint, it's hard not to see it as discredited.
Logged

politicus
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3723
Denmark


View Profile
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2012, 11:01:19 am »
Ignore

Are we talking about actual Socialism and not some American GOP boogeyman? Well in that case, then while some Socialist parties around the world are good, from an economic standpoint, it's hard not to see it as discredited.
Yes, the other thing is utterly uninteresting. Given that we cant have unlimited growth in the future for ecological reasons socialist economic thinking with an emphasis on distribution of resources and government planning may have a comeback at some point in the future.
Logged

Every time I see Denmark I just want to punch it in the face...
Mechaman
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 13821
Jamaica


View Profile
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2012, 02:12:42 pm »
Ignore

Learning to let go of ideology is perhaps the greatest lesson I've learned, it allows me to think freely (kind of like atheism really).

If you actually think that... then... well... I'm afraid that I have some very bad news for you.


Okay, maybe not the greatest lesson I've ever learned (brushing my tongue while brushing my teeth to give me fresh breath is probably the greatest lesson I've ever learned), but it's up there.

Obviously, not being beholden to a consistent pattern of thought has it's benefits.  You don't ever have to defend something for being "not (insert x here)".
Logged



23:19   Xahar   you're literally a white dude Mechaman
Хahar
Xahar
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 38846
Bangladesh


View Profile
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2012, 01:43:54 pm »
Ignore

An ideology is, in its essence, a logically consistent way of viewing the world. That's important.
Logged

Update reading list

The idea of parodying the preceding Atlasian's postings is laughable, of course, but not for reasons one might expect.
Insula Dei
belgiansocialist
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4259
Belgium


View Profile
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2012, 02:22:11 pm »
Ignore

Like capitalism, it is a terrible idea when brought to all its logical conclusions, and a very good one when conceived with some pragmatism.

You still don't understand what socialism is.

Since 'what is socialism?' seems to be sort of the point of this thread, a post like that begs for some further explanation of your definition of socialism.
Logged

R2D2
20RP12
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 22174
Germany


Political Matrix
E: -7.94, S: -8.09

View Profile
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2012, 11:12:21 pm »
Ignore

Horrible ideoology.
Logged


Also, it's so R-Money to unabashedly ruin a thousand dollar suit with ice water and laugh about it.
LastVoter
seatown
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4466
Thailand


View Profile
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2012, 01:52:17 am »
Ignore

Voted FI assuming we're talking about the principles behind it - public ownership, greater social equality, redistribution of wealth etc.
You are missing the most important part of the principle, democratic control of production which is probably the most Freedom part of the Ideology.
Are we talking about actual Socialism and not some American GOP boogeyman? Well in that case, then while some Socialist parties around the world are good, from an economic standpoint, it's hard not to see it as discredited.
Explain how democratic control of production is discredited?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 01:54:55 am by Senator Seatown »Logged
LastVoter
seatown
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4466
Thailand


View Profile
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2012, 01:55:26 am »
Ignore

Like capitalism, it is a terrible idea when brought to all its logical conclusions, and a very good one when conceived with some pragmatism.

You still don't understand what socialism is.
Logged
Redalgo
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2503
United States


View Profile
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2012, 02:07:20 pm »
Ignore

Are we talking about actual Socialism and not some American GOP boogeyman? Well in that case, then while some Socialist parties around the world are good, from an economic standpoint, it's hard not to see it as discredited.
Explain how democratic control of production is discredited?

I am pretty sure he was referring to centralized planning, which is not really democratic anyway.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 02:09:47 pm by Redalgo »Logged

"I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to see realized." ~ Nelson Mandela
Peter the Lefty
Peternerdman
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3439
United States


View Profile
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2012, 10:57:04 pm »
Ignore

Depends on what kind.
Communism (as in, what Marx actually intended by it) Misguided, unrealistic. 
Leninism: A failure
Maoism: A failure
Trotskyism: Loony
Stalinism: A perverse disgrace to true socialism, even more than the ideologies already mentioned. 
Democratic Socialism: Good, but without all the industrial nationalizations please, and with economic democracy in the private sector, rather than having central planning.
Social Democracy, traditional style: Very good.  In the Scandinavian form, it works quite well. 
Social Democracy, Third Way style: a sellout to win more votes, and an insult to true socialism.
Logged



-7.61 Economic
-7.48 Social
morgieb
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5298
Australia


View Profile
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2012, 12:36:05 am »
Ignore

It varies.

Marxism is loony and misguided, whereas Stalinist socialism is a HI.
Social Democracy or Democratic Socialism however are FI's.
Logged
Niemeyerite
JulioMadrid
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6542
Spain


View Profile
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2012, 04:55:13 am »
Ignore

It varies.

Marxism is loony and misguided, whereas Stalinist socialism is a HI.
Social Democracy or Democratic Socialism however are FI's.

This. However, sometimes I think we should read Marx again to pick some of his ideas, because we can't be considered lefties anymore... That after Tony Blair, Papandreu or even Zapatero.
Logged

My evolution (by The Political Matrix):
E: -6.06 -> -6.97 -> -6.97 -> -8.13 -> -7.29 -> -8.26 -> -8.65 -> -7.03
S: -6.78 -> -6.09 -> -7.30 -> -7.13 -> -8.09 -> -8.35 -> -9.04 -> -8.61
Gustaf
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 26825


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

View Profile
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2012, 05:28:17 am »
Ignore

Voted FI assuming we're talking about the principles behind it - public ownership, greater social equality, redistribution of wealth etc.
You are missing the most important part of the principle, democratic control of production which is probably the most Freedom part of the Ideology.
Are we talking about actual Socialism and not some American GOP boogeyman? Well in that case, then while some Socialist parties around the world are good, from an economic standpoint, it's hard not to see it as discredited.
Explain how democratic control of production is discredited?

If by 'democratic control' you mean central planning and/or abolition of private property...really? How is it not discredited?
Logged

This place really has become a cesspool of degenerate whores...

Economic score: +0.9
Social score: -2.61

In MN for fantasy stuff, member of the most recently dissolved centrist party.
politicus
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3723
Denmark


View Profile
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2012, 05:39:53 am »
Ignore

Voted FI assuming we're talking about the principles behind it - public ownership, greater social equality, redistribution of wealth etc.
You are missing the most important part of the principle, democratic control of production which is probably the most Freedom part of the Ideology.
Are we talking about actual Socialism and not some American GOP boogeyman? Well in that case, then while some Socialist parties around the world are good, from an economic standpoint, it's hard not to see it as discredited.
Explain how democratic control of production is discredited?

If by 'democratic control' you mean central planning and/or abolition of private property...really? How is it not discredited?
Everyone (well, almost everyone) agrees central planning has been discredited, but a model with workers ownership - either alone or combined with community ownership (municipalities, cooperatives etc.) - has not. There are numerous potential problems with such a model, but since it hasn't been tried full scale in a whole society, you cant say it has been discredited.
Logged

Every time I see Denmark I just want to punch it in the face...
opebo
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 47618


View Profile
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2012, 05:40:00 am »
Ignore

...central planning and/or abolition of private property...really? How is it not discredited?

Conversely, how is it that private privilege and control of others through 'property' not discredited?  We see the carnage all around us.
Logged

The essence of democracy at its purest is a lynch mob

Gustaf
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 26825


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

View Profile
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2012, 05:55:45 am »
Ignore

...central planning and/or abolition of private property...really? How is it not discredited?

Conversely, how is it that private privilege and control of others through 'property' not discredited?  We see the carnage all around us.

Oh, that might be the biggest increase in public welfare and the greatest eradication of poverty the world has ever seen which is playing its tricks. I understand that might be discrediting from your point of view, since you like the poor to starve and get shot, but not to most people.

Politicus, that a model has never even been tried is not a major strike in its favour. Tongue
Logged

This place really has become a cesspool of degenerate whores...

Economic score: +0.9
Social score: -2.61

In MN for fantasy stuff, member of the most recently dissolved centrist party.
opebo
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 47618


View Profile
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2012, 06:09:44 am »
Ignore

Conversely, how is it that private privilege and control of others through 'property' not discredited?  We see the carnage all around us.

Oh, that might be the biggest increase in public welfare and the greatest eradication of poverty the world has ever seen which is playing its tricks.

Yes, nearly everyone, like you, believes that about the social order.  Looks rather like propaganda viewed from the bottom up though, n'est-ce pas?
Logged

The essence of democracy at its purest is a lynch mob

politicus
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3723
Denmark


View Profile
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2012, 06:16:01 am »
Ignore

...central planning and/or abolition of private property...really? How is it not discredited?

Conversely, how is it that private privilege and control of others through 'property' not discredited?  We see the carnage all around us.

Oh, that might be the biggest increase in public welfare and the greatest eradication of poverty the world has ever seen which is playing its tricks. I understand that might be discrediting from your point of view, since you like the poor to starve and get shot, but not to most people.

Politicus, that a model has never even been tried is not a major strike in its favour. Tongue
No, thats obvious. But you cant say that it has been discredited.

Elements of it has been implemented in Israel - espcially in the 50s and 60s.
The whole concept of a decentralised Socialist market economy is interesting. It is remarkable  that the Left has mostly stopped advocating an alternative to capitalism (as opposed to market economy) after the collapse of the Soviet model, without trying to develop viable alternatives. 

Logged

Every time I see Denmark I just want to punch it in the face...
Gustaf
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 26825


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

View Profile
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2012, 08:11:21 am »
Ignore

Conversely, how is it that private privilege and control of others through 'property' not discredited?  We see the carnage all around us.

Oh, that might be the biggest increase in public welfare and the greatest eradication of poverty the world has ever seen which is playing its tricks.

Yes, nearly everyone, like you, believes that about the social order.  Looks rather like propaganda viewed from the bottom up though, n'est-ce pas?

If one were to ask my grandmother, who's sister died at childbirth, who never got to attend university and had to spend most of her life washing and cleaning by hand whether life got better over the last century I don't think she would consider it propaganda.

Your worldview is only possible to believe from a very privileged position (actually, not even then, since it requires severe delusion as well).
Logged

This place really has become a cesspool of degenerate whores...

Economic score: +0.9
Social score: -2.61

In MN for fantasy stuff, member of the most recently dissolved centrist party.
Gustaf
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 26825


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

View Profile
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2012, 08:13:24 am »
Ignore

...central planning and/or abolition of private property...really? How is it not discredited?

Conversely, how is it that private privilege and control of others through 'property' not discredited?  We see the carnage all around us.

Oh, that might be the biggest increase in public welfare and the greatest eradication of poverty the world has ever seen which is playing its tricks. I understand that might be discrediting from your point of view, since you like the poor to starve and get shot, but not to most people.

Politicus, that a model has never even been tried is not a major strike in its favour. Tongue
No, thats obvious. But you cant say that it has been discredited.

Elements of it has been implemented in Israel - espcially in the 50s and 60s.
The whole concept of a decentralised Socialist market economy is interesting. It is remarkable  that the Left has mostly stopped advocating an alternative to capitalism (as opposed to market economy) after the collapse of the Soviet model, without trying to develop viable alternatives. 



I would say that organizational experience in general pretty much discredits it, as does the reorganizing of production in general over the last couple of centuries.

Logged

This place really has become a cesspool of degenerate whores...

Economic score: +0.9
Social score: -2.61

In MN for fantasy stuff, member of the most recently dissolved centrist party.
Sibboleth
Realpolitik
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 56425
Saint Helena


View Profile WWW
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2012, 08:47:48 am »
Ignore

Of course no one would define 'liberalism' as the rigid adherence to the economic policies of the 19th century.
Logged

"I have become entangled in my own data, and my conclusion stands in direct contradiction to the initial idea from which I started. Proceeding from unlimited freedom, I end with unlimited despotism. I will add, however, that there can be no solution of the social formula except mine."
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines