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| |-+  Individual Politics (Moderators: Grad Students are the Worst, Lunar, Torie)
| | |-+  Opinion of Socialism
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Poll
Question: Whats your opinion of Socialism?
FI   -29 (39.7%)
HI   -21 (28.8%)
Too diverse to categorize as one ideology   -23 (31.5%)
Dunno   -0 (0%)
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Total Voters: 73

Author Topic: Opinion of Socialism  (Read 3006 times)
Хahar
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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2012, 09:56:59 am »
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Like capitalism, it is a terrible idea when brought to all its logical conclusions, and a very good one when conceived with some pragmatism.

You still don't understand what socialism is.

Here I was going to say that he doesn't understand what capitalism is. Capitalism doesn't really have "logical conclusions."

Either way, the positioning of capitalism and socialism as though they're equivalent and diametrically opposed is incorrect.
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« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2012, 10:25:19 am »
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I have never said that. "Diametrically opposite" obviously makes no sense in the context of ideologies.
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« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2012, 10:42:28 am »
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Learning to let go of ideology is perhaps the greatest lesson I've learned, it allows me to think freely (kind of like atheism really).

If you actually think that... then... well... I'm afraid that I have some very bad news for you.
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Richard Hoggart 1918-2014
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« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2012, 10:47:17 am »
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I have never said that. "Diametrically opposite" obviously makes no sense in the context of ideologies.

Capitalism is most definitely not an ideology, unless you're writing from a gloriously archaic Marxist point of view...
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Richard Hoggart 1918-2014
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« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2012, 10:50:20 am »
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Are we talking about actual Socialism and not some American GOP boogeyman? Well in that case, then while some Socialist parties around the world are good, from an economic standpoint, it's hard not to see it as discredited.
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« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2012, 11:01:19 am »
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Are we talking about actual Socialism and not some American GOP boogeyman? Well in that case, then while some Socialist parties around the world are good, from an economic standpoint, it's hard not to see it as discredited.
Yes, the other thing is utterly uninteresting. Given that we cant have unlimited growth in the future for ecological reasons socialist economic thinking with an emphasis on distribution of resources and government planning may have a comeback at some point in the future.
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« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2012, 02:12:42 pm »
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Learning to let go of ideology is perhaps the greatest lesson I've learned, it allows me to think freely (kind of like atheism really).

If you actually think that... then... well... I'm afraid that I have some very bad news for you.


Okay, maybe not the greatest lesson I've ever learned (brushing my tongue while brushing my teeth to give me fresh breath is probably the greatest lesson I've ever learned), but it's up there.

Obviously, not being beholden to a consistent pattern of thought has it's benefits.  You don't ever have to defend something for being "not (insert x here)".
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Хahar
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« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2012, 01:43:54 pm »
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An ideology is, in its essence, a logically consistent way of viewing the world. That's important.
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« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2012, 02:22:11 pm »
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Like capitalism, it is a terrible idea when brought to all its logical conclusions, and a very good one when conceived with some pragmatism.

You still don't understand what socialism is.

Since 'what is socialism?' seems to be sort of the point of this thread, a post like that begs for some further explanation of your definition of socialism.
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« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2012, 11:12:21 pm »
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Horrible ideoology.
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« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2012, 01:52:17 am »
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Voted FI assuming we're talking about the principles behind it - public ownership, greater social equality, redistribution of wealth etc.
You are missing the most important part of the principle, democratic control of production which is probably the most Freedom part of the Ideology.
Are we talking about actual Socialism and not some American GOP boogeyman? Well in that case, then while some Socialist parties around the world are good, from an economic standpoint, it's hard not to see it as discredited.
Explain how democratic control of production is discredited?
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« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2012, 01:55:26 am »
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Like capitalism, it is a terrible idea when brought to all its logical conclusions, and a very good one when conceived with some pragmatism.

You still don't understand what socialism is.
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« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2012, 02:07:20 pm »
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Are we talking about actual Socialism and not some American GOP boogeyman? Well in that case, then while some Socialist parties around the world are good, from an economic standpoint, it's hard not to see it as discredited.
Explain how democratic control of production is discredited?

I am pretty sure he was referring to centralized planning, which is not really democratic anyway.
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Peter the Lefty
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« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2012, 10:57:04 pm »
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Depends on what kind.
Communism (as in, what Marx actually intended by it) Misguided, unrealistic. 
Leninism: A failure
Maoism: A failure
Trotskyism: Loony
Stalinism: A perverse disgrace to true socialism, even more than the ideologies already mentioned. 
Democratic Socialism: Good, but without all the industrial nationalizations please, and with economic democracy in the private sector, rather than having central planning.
Social Democracy, traditional style: Very good.  In the Scandinavian form, it works quite well. 
Social Democracy, Third Way style: a sellout to win more votes, and an insult to true socialism.
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« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2012, 12:36:05 am »
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It varies.

Marxism is loony and misguided, whereas Stalinist socialism is a HI.
Social Democracy or Democratic Socialism however are FI's.
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« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2012, 04:55:13 am »
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It varies.

Marxism is loony and misguided, whereas Stalinist socialism is a HI.
Social Democracy or Democratic Socialism however are FI's.

This. However, sometimes I think we should read Marx again to pick some of his ideas, because we can't be considered lefties anymore... That after Tony Blair, Papandreu or even Zapatero.
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My evolution (by The Political Matrix):
E: -6.06 -> -6.97 -> -6.97 -> -8.13 -> -7.29 -> -8.26 -> -8.65 -> -7.03
S: -6.78 -> -6.09 -> -7.30 -> -7.13 -> -8.09 -> -8.35 -> -9.04 -> -8.61
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« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2012, 05:28:17 am »
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Voted FI assuming we're talking about the principles behind it - public ownership, greater social equality, redistribution of wealth etc.
You are missing the most important part of the principle, democratic control of production which is probably the most Freedom part of the Ideology.
Are we talking about actual Socialism and not some American GOP boogeyman? Well in that case, then while some Socialist parties around the world are good, from an economic standpoint, it's hard not to see it as discredited.
Explain how democratic control of production is discredited?

If by 'democratic control' you mean central planning and/or abolition of private property...really? How is it not discredited?
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« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2012, 05:39:53 am »
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Voted FI assuming we're talking about the principles behind it - public ownership, greater social equality, redistribution of wealth etc.
You are missing the most important part of the principle, democratic control of production which is probably the most Freedom part of the Ideology.
Are we talking about actual Socialism and not some American GOP boogeyman? Well in that case, then while some Socialist parties around the world are good, from an economic standpoint, it's hard not to see it as discredited.
Explain how democratic control of production is discredited?

If by 'democratic control' you mean central planning and/or abolition of private property...really? How is it not discredited?
Everyone (well, almost everyone) agrees central planning has been discredited, but a model with workers ownership - either alone or combined with community ownership (municipalities, cooperatives etc.) - has not. There are numerous potential problems with such a model, but since it hasn't been tried full scale in a whole society, you cant say it has been discredited.
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« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2012, 05:40:00 am »
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...central planning and/or abolition of private property...really? How is it not discredited?

Conversely, how is it that private privilege and control of others through 'property' not discredited?  We see the carnage all around us.
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« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2012, 05:55:45 am »
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...central planning and/or abolition of private property...really? How is it not discredited?

Conversely, how is it that private privilege and control of others through 'property' not discredited?  We see the carnage all around us.

Oh, that might be the biggest increase in public welfare and the greatest eradication of poverty the world has ever seen which is playing its tricks. I understand that might be discrediting from your point of view, since you like the poor to starve and get shot, but not to most people.

Politicus, that a model has never even been tried is not a major strike in its favour. Tongue
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« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2012, 06:09:44 am »
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Conversely, how is it that private privilege and control of others through 'property' not discredited?  We see the carnage all around us.

Oh, that might be the biggest increase in public welfare and the greatest eradication of poverty the world has ever seen which is playing its tricks.

Yes, nearly everyone, like you, believes that about the social order.  Looks rather like propaganda viewed from the bottom up though, n'est-ce pas?
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« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2012, 06:16:01 am »
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...central planning and/or abolition of private property...really? How is it not discredited?

Conversely, how is it that private privilege and control of others through 'property' not discredited?  We see the carnage all around us.

Oh, that might be the biggest increase in public welfare and the greatest eradication of poverty the world has ever seen which is playing its tricks. I understand that might be discrediting from your point of view, since you like the poor to starve and get shot, but not to most people.

Politicus, that a model has never even been tried is not a major strike in its favour. Tongue
No, thats obvious. But you cant say that it has been discredited.

Elements of it has been implemented in Israel - espcially in the 50s and 60s.
The whole concept of a decentralised Socialist market economy is interesting. It is remarkable  that the Left has mostly stopped advocating an alternative to capitalism (as opposed to market economy) after the collapse of the Soviet model, without trying to develop viable alternatives. 

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"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last."

Winston Churchill

"While I am a great believer in the free enterprise system and all that it entails, I am an even stronger believer in the right of our people to live in a clean and pollution-free environment."

Barry Goldwater

The way 90% of Atlas threads end up:
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« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2012, 08:11:21 am »
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Conversely, how is it that private privilege and control of others through 'property' not discredited?  We see the carnage all around us.

Oh, that might be the biggest increase in public welfare and the greatest eradication of poverty the world has ever seen which is playing its tricks.

Yes, nearly everyone, like you, believes that about the social order.  Looks rather like propaganda viewed from the bottom up though, n'est-ce pas?

If one were to ask my grandmother, who's sister died at childbirth, who never got to attend university and had to spend most of her life washing and cleaning by hand whether life got better over the last century I don't think she would consider it propaganda.

Your worldview is only possible to believe from a very privileged position (actually, not even then, since it requires severe delusion as well).
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« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2012, 08:13:24 am »
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...central planning and/or abolition of private property...really? How is it not discredited?

Conversely, how is it that private privilege and control of others through 'property' not discredited?  We see the carnage all around us.

Oh, that might be the biggest increase in public welfare and the greatest eradication of poverty the world has ever seen which is playing its tricks. I understand that might be discrediting from your point of view, since you like the poor to starve and get shot, but not to most people.

Politicus, that a model has never even been tried is not a major strike in its favour. Tongue
No, thats obvious. But you cant say that it has been discredited.

Elements of it has been implemented in Israel - espcially in the 50s and 60s.
The whole concept of a decentralised Socialist market economy is interesting. It is remarkable  that the Left has mostly stopped advocating an alternative to capitalism (as opposed to market economy) after the collapse of the Soviet model, without trying to develop viable alternatives. 



I would say that organizational experience in general pretty much discredits it, as does the reorganizing of production in general over the last couple of centuries.

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« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2012, 08:47:48 am »
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Of course no one would define 'liberalism' as the rigid adherence to the economic policies of the 19th century.
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Richard Hoggart 1918-2014
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