SENATE BILL: Atlasia-Israel Defense and Security Cooperation Treaty (VS)
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  SENATE BILL: Atlasia-Israel Defense and Security Cooperation Treaty (VS)
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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: Atlasia-Israel Defense and Security Cooperation Treaty (VS)  (Read 14382 times)
Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« on: June 12, 2012, 11:20:09 AM »
« edited: July 21, 2012, 09:17:24 AM by Senator North Carolina Yankee »

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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2012, 11:20:58 AM »

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Sponsor: Ben
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Kaine for Senate '18
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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2012, 11:29:06 AM »

Israel has always been one of our most important allies; they are an oasis of democracy in an arid region of authoritarianism.  This treaty reassures our ally that we will stand by them, especially with the development that Iran, a nation that is as friendly to Israel as a cotton farmer is to a boll weevil, is now a nuclear nation.  This is not a radical treaty; it does not break new ground in any significant way.  But it is sending a message to our friends and the enemies of our friends.

And so, I urge speedy ratification.
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Kaine for Senate '18
benconstine
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« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2012, 09:51:58 PM »

When can we get a vote on this?
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Donerail
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« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2012, 09:53:26 PM »

Debate expires like 11 AM on the 15th (tomorrow).
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LastVoter
seatown
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2012, 01:04:45 AM »

There is no way I can support this.
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clarence
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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2012, 02:42:50 AM »

Strongly support of course...
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Donerail
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2012, 07:28:50 AM »


Please expand. Anything we can do to make it more palatable?
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AndrewTX
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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2012, 08:22:26 AM »

No debate from me on this, I'll be supporting this.
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The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
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« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2012, 12:27:08 PM »

When I see "sending a message" I automatically think "moving us closer to war."  I will not support any legislation that heightens the possibility of war with Iran, and I am not sure how I will vote on this legislation.
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Donerail
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« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2012, 12:51:50 PM »

When I see "sending a message" I automatically think "moving us closer to war."  I will not support any legislation that heightens the possibility of war with Iran, and I am not sure how I will vote on this legislation.

Heightens the possibility of war? It will do the opposite. Through the ratification of this treaty, we will be saying to Israel, "We've got your back and support you." This show of support should provide some sort of sense of security to them, reassuring them and thus making them less likely to attack Iran.
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The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
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« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2012, 01:09:09 PM »

When I see "sending a message" I automatically think "moving us closer to war."  I will not support any legislation that heightens the possibility of war with Iran, and I am not sure how I will vote on this legislation.

Heightens the possibility of war? It will do the opposite. Through the ratification of this treaty, we will be saying to Israel, "We've got your back and support you." This show of support should provide some sort of sense of security to them, reassuring them and thus making them less likely to attack Iran.

But would Iran not see this as a way of preparing for war, and thus increase the chances that Iran would attack?
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Donerail
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« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2012, 01:14:19 PM »

When I see "sending a message" I automatically think "moving us closer to war."  I will not support any legislation that heightens the possibility of war with Iran, and I am not sure how I will vote on this legislation.

Heightens the possibility of war? It will do the opposite. Through the ratification of this treaty, we will be saying to Israel, "We've got your back and support you." This show of support should provide some sort of sense of security to them, reassuring them and thus making them less likely to attack Iran.

But would Iran not see this as a way of preparing for war, and thus increase the chances that Iran would attack?

Given that Iranian policymakers have considered Atlasia and Israel in a de facto alliance already, it would likely make little difference in their opinion.
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2012, 04:55:10 PM »

When I see "sending a message" I automatically think "moving us closer to war."  I will not support any legislation that heightens the possibility of war with Iran, and I am not sure how I will vote on this legislation.

Heightens the possibility of war? It will do the opposite. Through the ratification of this treaty, we will be saying to Israel, "We've got your back and support you." This show of support should provide some sort of sense of security to them, reassuring them and thus making them less likely to attack Iran.

But would Iran not see this as a way of preparing for war, and thus increase the chances that Iran would attack?

Given that Iranian policymakers have considered Atlasia and Israel in a de facto alliance already, it would likely make little difference in their opinion.

Very well, then.
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Donerail
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« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2012, 04:59:06 PM »

When I see "sending a message" I automatically think "moving us closer to war."  I will not support any legislation that heightens the possibility of war with Iran, and I am not sure how I will vote on this legislation.

Heightens the possibility of war? It will do the opposite. Through the ratification of this treaty, we will be saying to Israel, "We've got your back and support you." This show of support should provide some sort of sense of security to them, reassuring them and thus making them less likely to attack Iran.

But would Iran not see this as a way of preparing for war, and thus increase the chances that Iran would attack?

Given that Iranian policymakers have considered Atlasia and Israel in a de facto alliance already, it would likely make little difference in their opinion.

Very well, then.

They call us (Atlasia) the Great Satan; they call Israel "the Little Satan". Pretty safe to say it won't affect their (negative) opinion.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2012, 05:23:36 PM »

Vote will begin 24 hours after everyone stops talking or 24 hours after a UC request has been entered to waive cloture requirements or after a cloture vote has been held. All this is predicated on the 72 hour minimum debate time expiring or a UC request to waive that has been entered and 24 hours to object has been given. Same as every bill, but since someone asked. Tongue
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tpfkaw
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« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2012, 04:54:32 PM »

Motion to table.
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tpfkaw
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« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2012, 06:07:47 PM »
« Edited: June 16, 2012, 06:09:42 PM by 'cool,' the term 'cool,' could in some ways be deemed racial »

Frankly, given that shortly after Atlasia sold Israel a load of F-16s, the Chinese Air Force started flying a new plane... (as acknowledged by an Atlasian military report: "United States technology has been acquired through Israel in the form of the Lavi [Israeli domestic variant of the F-16] fighter and possibly SAM technology").





That and its repeated spying, theft of sensitive technology including WMD technology, and other illegal activities in the US. (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12) - and that is only a partial list of the incidents we know about!

This GAO report from 1996 provides an interesting look into "Country A's" [Israel's] spying activities in Atlasia.  This more recent article is a nice summary if you don't want to click on all the above links.  Of particular interest is the paragraph about Israeli sales of US intelligence to hostile foreign governments:

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Israel has fooled us once, twice, dozens of times.  Shame on us if we decide to deepen our sharing of military technology and military intelligence with a country that has proven, time after time, broken promise after broken promise, that it absolutely cannot be trusted with either.  Shame on us too if we decide to "improve our alliance" with a country that conducts itself in a manner more befitting of our enemy than our ally (as the GAO report says, "the government of Country A conducts the most aggressive espionage operation against the United States of any U.S. ally").
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2012, 07:28:32 PM »

The motion needs to be seconded by another sitting Senator.
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Sbane
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« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2012, 01:21:55 AM »

I second the motion to table.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2012, 05:13:00 PM »

A motion to table has been entered and has been seconded by another Senator.


Senators, a 48 hour vote is now open on the question of whether or not to table the underlying treaty, please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain. Passage shall require 2/3rds of those voting to vote in the affirmative, excluding abstentions.


Normally I would post the text of the relevant OSPR section but we have seen it enough and I don't have the OSPR link handy on this back/hip/arm/leg killer machine.
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Kaine for Senate '18
benconstine
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« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2012, 05:27:28 PM »

NAY!!!!
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clarence
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« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2012, 06:07:04 PM »

Nay- I don't see why this would be one to table folks... clearly Senators have an opinion one way or another- it will pass or fail quickly I believe (and I hope pass)
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The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
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« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2012, 07:31:21 PM »

Nay.  I am still not sure how I will vote on this bill and I would like to see much more debate.
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tpfkaw
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« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2012, 10:49:44 PM »

Aye.
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