Have the democrats shifted left?

[krazen1211]

Yep. Check out education spending and the number of teachers in 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000, and 2008.


Each decade more and more and more of the private sector is bitten off and gifted to the unions to gift back to the Democratic party, because the Democratic party politicos spew nonsense about how we need student:teacher ratios to decline significantly from where they were 10 years prior.

Seriously? You're basing a theory of Democratic leftward swing on education spending? And you're calling the student:teacher ratio nonsense? And do you even pay attention to where more spending comes from these days (hint: it's not unions)?

Seriously, you just made a bunch of bull up.

It is of course no coincidence that the nation somehow grew by roughly 600,000 teachers between 1970 and 1995 while the student population declined!

I didn't make anything up; you've been the one talking about how the student: teacher ratio is nonsense. How is it nonsense?

And do you deny that corporations spend more on politics (both sides) than unions do these days?

Either way, I can't understand how you're inferring a complete left-ward swing based on those too factors, one of which is completely false.

You misunderstand: The student teacher ratio isn't nonsense. It's a number.

What is nonsense is the idea that we have to keep decreasing it for no reason at all other than to payoff some union profiteers. Merely maintaining historical student:teacher ratios present in, say, 1990, would allow the nation to finally shed hundreds of thousands of unnecessary teachers who take valuable tax revenue.

[krazen1211]

Here are some amazing facts:

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d10/tables/dt10_068.asp


Student enrollment in 1970: 45,894,000
Student enrollment in 1995: 44,840,000


Teachers employed in 1970: 2,059,000
Teachers employed in 1995: 2,598,000



It's barely conceivable how 25 years of technological advancement can lead to such a massive, rampant decline in labor productivity. Of course in the private sector this would not be tolerated.

[CARLHAYDEN]

According to Gallup, 29% of Democrats were Liberals in 2000, and 39% in 2011.

Also according to Gallup, 21% of Independents were Liberal in 2000, and 20% in 2011.

Republicans were 6% Liberals in 2000, and 4% in 2001.

So, yes, the Democrats have drifted to the left.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/152021/conservatives-remain-largest-ideological-group.aspx


Does it occur to you that self-identification based upon the vague and nonsensical terms used in American politics and media might not be the best metric for this, or that ten years might not be the timeframe most germane to the initial question?

I posted data from a respected pollster with a link.

You posted nothing to support your views.

Hmm.

[opebo]

Student enrollment in 1970: 45,894,000
Student enrollment in 1995: 44,840,000

Teachers employed in 1970: 2,059,000
Teachers employed in 1995: 2,598,000

It's barely conceivable how 25 years of technological advancement can lead to such a massive, rampant decline in labor productivity. Of course in the private sector this would not be tolerated.

krazen, the private sector has failed us - I hope you're not suggesting we should model our public services on this failed and discredited system.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Student enrollment in 1970: 45,894,000
Student enrollment in 1995: 44,840,000

Teachers employed in 1970: 2,059,000
Teachers employed in 1995: 2,598,000

It's barely conceivable how 25 years of technological advancement can lead to such a massive, rampant decline in labor productivity. Of course in the private sector this would not be tolerated.

krazen, the private sector has failed us - I hope you're not suggesting we should model our public services on this failed and discredited system.

Succinct and to the point, sir opebo!

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

According to Gallup, 29% of Democrats were Liberals in 2000, and 39% in 2011.

Also according to Gallup, 21% of Independents were Liberal in 2000, and 20% in 2011.

Republicans were 6% Liberals in 2000, and 4% in 2001.

So, yes, the Democrats have drifted to the left.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/152021/conservatives-remain-largest-ideological-group.aspx

Does it occur to you that self-identification based upon the vague and nonsensical terms used in American politics and media might not be the best metric for this, or that ten years might not be the timeframe most germane to the initial question?

I posted data from a respected pollster with a link.

You posted nothing to support your views.

Hmm.

CARL. even when given help, you often refuse to consider viewpoints that don't meet your preconceived ideas.  The data you cited from that poll support several equally logical possibilities.

1. The possibility you gave, that the Democrats have shifted left and the Republicans have shifted right, while the center has remained relatively unchanged.

2.  The possibility that Nathan gave, that the center has shifted to the right and the Republicans have shifted even further to the right.  (This could be further broken down into the Democrats have shifted right, but not as much as the center, the Dems have stayed the same, or the Dems have shifted to the left.)

3. The center has shifted to the left, and Democrats have shifted even further to the left.  (This could be further broken down into the Republicans have shifted left, but not as much as the center, the Reps have stayed the same, or the Reps have shifted to the right.)

The reason why all of those possibility are valid under the data Gallup provides is that Gallup provides no information on how what is considered liberal and conservative in 2001 compares to what is considered liberal and conservative in 2011.

The only certain thing we can ascertain from the Gallup data is that the two parties are more polarized in 2011 than in 2001.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Here are some amazing facts:

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d10/tables/dt10_068.asp


Student enrollment in 1970: 45,894,000
Student enrollment in 1995: 44,840,000


Teachers employed in 1970: 2,059,000
Teachers employed in 1995: 2,598,000



It's barely conceivable how 25 years of technological advancement can lead to such a massive, rampant decline in labor productivity. Of course in the private sector this would not be tolerated.

When I graduated high school in 1984, a South Carolina high school diploma required collecting 18 course units.  Today, such a diploma requires 24 course units.  While the exact numbers vary from state to state, it is true that we expect more teaching to be done now than we once did.  The increase in high school units required if taken as exemplar of the underlying trend should mean a 33% increase in teachers/student, yet your numbers only a 29% increase.

I acknowledge that the time references are different and that the numbers I gave only allow for the crudest of comparisons.  But the basic point remains, since we expect students to learn more and spend more time in the classroom, then if all else had remained equal, the teachers/student ratio should be higher.   That isn't to say that all in well in public schools, but your monomania on the subject seems to lead you into a distorted use of statistics to place all the blame on the teacher unions.

[CARLHAYDEN]

According to Gallup, 29% of Democrats were Liberals in 2000, and 39% in 2011.

Also according to Gallup, 21% of Independents were Liberal in 2000, and 20% in 2011.

Republicans were 6% Liberals in 2000, and 4% in 2001.

So, yes, the Democrats have drifted to the left.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/152021/conservatives-remain-largest-ideological-group.aspx

Does it occur to you that self-identification based upon the vague and nonsensical terms used in American politics and media might not be the best metric for this, or that ten years might not be the timeframe most germane to the initial question?

I posted data from a respected pollster with a link.

You posted nothing to support your views.

Hmm.

CARL. even when given help, you often refuse to consider viewpoints that don't meet your preconceived ideas.  The data you cited from that poll support several equally logical possibilities.

1. The possibility you gave, that the Democrats have shifted left and the Republicans have shifted right, while the center has remained relatively unchanged.

2.  The possibility that Nathan gave, that the center has shifted to the right and the Republicans have shifted even further to the right.  (This could be further broken down into the Democrats have shifted right, but not as much as the center, the Dems have stayed the same, or the Dems have shifted to the left.)

3. The center has shifted to the left, and Democrats have shifted even further to the left.  (This could be further broken down into the Republicans have shifted left, but not as much as the center, the Reps have stayed the same, or the Reps have shifted to the right.)

The reason why all of those possibility are valid under the data Gallup provides is that Gallup provides no information on how what is considered liberal and conservative in 2001 compares to what is considered liberal and conservative in 2011.

The only certain thing we can ascertain from the Gallup data is that the two parties are more polarized in 2011 than in 2001.

Ernest,

Not surprised you disagree.

Of course, you provided no sources to support your suppositions, which seems to be your usual approach.

If you had bothered to check past posts you would have seen where I provided details on the movement of the Democrat party in Congress to the left.

Others have made the same observation.

Here is what Chris Bowers had to say on April 8, 2010, in an article entitled 'Long-term trends show Democrat Party moving to the left.'

“The trend through the decades, and over the last eleven Congress, is unmistakable: the party keeps moving to the left”.

http://www.openleft.com/diary/18195/longterm-trends-show-democratic-party-moving-to-the-left

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I for one generally distrust articles whose titles treat the major right-wing Thai political party as if it were the major centrist-to-center-left American political party.

Here are some amazing facts:

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d10/tables/dt10_068.asp


Student enrollment in 1970: 45,894,000
Student enrollment in 1995: 44,840,000


Teachers employed in 1970: 2,059,000
Teachers employed in 1995: 2,598,000



It's barely conceivable how 25 years of technological advancement can lead to such a massive, rampant decline in labor productivity. Of course in the private sector this would not be tolerated.

Teaching doesn't strike me as the sort of thing that should be treated in terms of 'labor productivity' the same way that, say, stamping out cheap plastic crap on an assembly line in Szechwan would be, but whatever.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

If you had bothered to check past posts you would have seen where I provided details on the movement of the Democrat party in Congress to the left.

Not in this thread, and if you think I'm going to check through your 10K+ posts to see if you ever backed up your point, you have a ridiculously high opinion of how much attention I pay to what you post.

By itself, all the Gallup data shows is evidence of the polarization of the political spectrum in the past decade.  It does not show how the political spectrum may have shifted.

Here is what Chris Bowers had to say on April 8, 2010, in an article entitled 'Long-term trends show Democrat Party moving to the left.'

“The trend through the decades, and over the last eleven Congress, is unmistakable: the party keeps moving to the left”.

http://www.openleft.com/diary/18195/longterm-trends-show-democratic-party-moving-to-the-left

Now this is the sort of analysis that could be used to support your claim, since it purports to include a basis that attempts to comparing policy preferences in different years.

The problem is, their basis is not immune to the problem of the wandering center, as shown by the following graph from the VoteView site that provided the data used in the OpenLeft article.



http://voteview.com/dwnomin_joint_house_and_senate.htm

Any analysis that shows that the Democrats of the Gilded Age were as liberal as the Democrats of today clearly is not using an unchanging definition of what it means to be liberal or conservative.  Instead all the VoteView data does is show with greater detail and over a longer period of time than the Gallup data did that the parties have been growing more polarized since the 1930s and -40s which was a period during which the two parties were the least polarized on economic matters.

[hopper]

According to Gallup, 29% of Democrats were Liberals in 2000, and 39% in 2011.

Also according to Gallup, 21% of Independents were Liberal in 2000, and 20% in 2011.

Republicans were 6% Liberals in 2000, and 4% in 2001.

So, yes, the Democrats have drifted to the left.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/152021/conservatives-remain-largest-ideological-group.aspx

Does it occur to you that self-identification based upon the vague and nonsensical terms used in American politics and media might not be the best metric for this, or that ten years might not be the timeframe most germane to the initial question?

I posted data from a respected pollster with a link.

You posted nothing to support your views.

Hmm.

CARL. even when given help, you often refuse to consider viewpoints that don't meet your preconceived ideas.  The data you cited from that poll support several equally logical possibilities.

1. The possibility you gave, that the Democrats have shifted left and the Republicans have shifted right, while the center has remained relatively unchanged.

2.  The possibility that Nathan gave, that the center has shifted to the right and the Republicans have shifted even further to the right.  (This could be further broken down into the Democrats have shifted right, but not as much as the center, the Dems have stayed the same, or the Dems have shifted to the left.)

3. The center has shifted to the left, and Democrats have shifted even further to the left.  (This could be further broken down into the Republicans have shifted left, but not as much as the center, the Reps have stayed the same, or the Reps have shifted to the right.)

The reason why all of those possibility are valid under the data Gallup provides is that Gallup provides no information on how what is considered liberal and conservative in 2001 compares to what is considered liberal and conservative in 2011.

The only certain thing we can ascertain from the Gallup data is that the two parties are more polarized in 2011 than in 2001.

I'll take most of Number 1 and maybe a quarter of Number 3. Moderates in the center agree with the Dems on social issues but nessecarily on economic ones.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Well, lets have a look at the exit polls for 2004 (the first done by Edison) and 2008:

In 2004 the vote by ideology was:

Liberal (21%)
Moderate (45%)
Conservative (34%)

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

In 2008 the vote by ideology was:

Liberal (22%)
Moderate (44%)
Conservative (34%)

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#val=USP00p1

We'll see what the 2012 results will be in a little under five months.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

CARLHAYDEN, this is absolutely frivolous.

[CARLHAYDEN]

CARLHAYDEN, this is absolutely frivolous.

To some people facts are "frivolous."

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

CARLHAYDEN, this is absolutely frivolous.

To some people facts are "frivolous."

What's more important is that to some people exit polls about self-identification along nonsensical and ill-defined ideological lines are 'facts'.

[HighPlainsDrifter]

yes

[Zioneer]

yes

No (economically at lest).