Question for Christian conservatives
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 02:04:02 PM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  Individual Politics (Moderator: The Dowager Mod)
  Question for Christian conservatives
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2
Author Topic: Question for Christian conservatives  (Read 4099 times)
H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
Alfred F. Jones
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,075
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: June 15, 2012, 02:29:52 PM »

How do you reconcile Jesus' teachings with your beliefs? I don't think the average conservative believes in or obeys the Golden Rule or loves his neighbor as himself. Giving tax cuts to the rich and turning the poor and immigrants away isn't very Christian in my book.

Thoughts?
Logged
FEMA Camp Administrator
Cathcon
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 27,284
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2012, 04:09:29 PM »

Lol.
Logged
🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸
shua
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 25,664
Nepal


Political Matrix
E: 1.29, S: -0.70

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2012, 04:23:28 PM »

I don't think the average conservative believes in or obeys the Golden Rule or loves his neighbor as himself.
I don't believe the 'average' person of any category does.
Logged
They put it to a vote and they just kept lying
20RP12
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 38,235
United States


Political Matrix
E: -5.29, S: -7.13

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2012, 04:24:19 PM »


As an Atheist Conservative, this is the correct response.
Logged
Atlas Has Shrugged
ChairmanSanchez
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 38,096
United States


Political Matrix
E: 5.29, S: -5.04


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2012, 06:29:47 PM »

Indeed...

I go to a church called "The Love Wins Church". The Golden Rule is right above the door, printed on the window. I truly love the message, and try to live by the Golden Rule. But if I was graded, I would get an "F". So would every single other member of the church. Why? Not because we are Conservative or Liberal, but because we are human.
Logged
True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
Moderators
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 42,157
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2012, 06:41:03 PM »

Tho I don't think that this is the case for the general population, by the standards of this forum, I guess I'd be grouped among the Christian conservatives, so I'll give a shot at answering it.

To begin with, an emphasis on redistributionist taxation is not something that can be justified under scripture.  The message of Jesus is far more concerned with the next world than this world.  See for example the Parable of the Rich Fool (Luke 12:13-21).  Christian economic theory centers on voluntary redistribution not confiscatory redistribution.  Note specifically Luke 12:13-14.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.
Logged
Frodo
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 24,509
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2012, 06:52:02 PM »
« Edited: June 15, 2012, 06:53:40 PM by Frodo »

They conveniently ignore this passage from Matthew 22:15-22,

15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.

16  And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.

17  Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou?  Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?

18  But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

19  Shew me the tribute money.  And they brought unto him a penny.

20  And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?

21  They say unto him, Caesar's.  Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

22  When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.


The federal government prints, mints, and distributes out the currency that we use on a daily basis.  That money therefore belongs to Caesar -to the federal government, not the people.  It is the government's money, not the people's.  

And following the logic passed down by Ronald Reagan (deliberately refuting Abraham Lincoln's words in his Gettysburg Address that the government is composed of the people, by the people, for the people), I think it has been abundantly established by Republicans and conservatives implicitly that the American people and the federal government are two different and completely separate entities.  
Logged
🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸
shua
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 25,664
Nepal


Political Matrix
E: 1.29, S: -0.70

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2012, 12:29:11 AM »

The federal government prints, mints, and distributes out the currency that we use on a daily basis.  That money therefore belongs to Caesar -to the federal government, not the people.  It is the government's money, not the people's. 

Jesus was not saying that all your money belongs to Caesar - much of the economic activity of Jesus' day did not involve coins with Caesar's image. Jesus was suggesting to pay your taxes to Caesar and your tithes to God. (The coins that were used for tithes did not have Caesar's image on them, but the coins that were used for taxes did.)
Jesus is setting out a conservative and conciliatory view - the radical view was to resist. These taxes were oppressive and so it's hard to imagine Jesus approving of them considering what he said and did about similar oppression by the Temple system - but Jesus was not interested in stirring up political revolt, and he wasn't interested in getting into an argument with his opponents about it.

This passage does highlight something about conservatives - which is the belief that different institutions play different roles. For example, there is a way to help the poor, and a way not to.
Logged
The Mikado
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 21,677


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2012, 12:34:06 AM »

Considering that the Judean and Galilean peasant had to pay not only a hefty tax to Rome, but a significant Temple Tax to the priestly elite in Jerusalem (rendering unto God what is God's), the quote is actually kind of brutal. 

Like most of the stories of Jesus and the Pharisees, it's them trying to force him to answer a provocative question with either a treasonous answer (don't pay taxes) or an unpopular one (pay taxes), which Jesus gets out of with clever wordplay and skilled misdirection to avoid answering the question.

Logged
Frodo
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 24,509
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2012, 12:57:20 AM »

The federal government prints, mints, and distributes out the currency that we use on a daily basis.  That money therefore belongs to Caesar -to the federal government, not the people.  It is the government's money, not the people's.  

Jesus was not saying that all your money belongs to Caesar - much of the economic activity of Jesus' day did not involve coins with Caesar's image. Jesus was suggesting to pay your taxes to Caesar and your tithes to God. (The coins that were used for tithes did not have Caesar's image on them, but the coins that were used for taxes did.)
Jesus is setting out a conservative and conciliatory view - the radical view was to resist. These taxes were oppressive and so it's hard to imagine Jesus approving of them considering what he said and did about similar oppression by the Temple system - but Jesus was not interested in stirring up political revolt, and he wasn't interested in getting into an argument with his opponents about it.

This passage does highlight something about conservatives - which is the belief that different institutions play different roles. For example, there is a way to help the poor, and a way not to.

The currency we use bear the images of past Caesars -of past Presidents, and other important figures and symbols central to America's identity as an independent federal republic.  So yes, the money we use does belong to the federal government.
Logged
🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸
shua
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 25,664
Nepal


Political Matrix
E: 1.29, S: -0.70

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2012, 01:17:00 AM »

The federal government prints, mints, and distributes out the currency that we use on a daily basis.  That money therefore belongs to Caesar -to the federal government, not the people.  It is the government's money, not the people's.  

Jesus was not saying that all your money belongs to Caesar - much of the economic activity of Jesus' day did not involve coins with Caesar's image. Jesus was suggesting to pay your taxes to Caesar and your tithes to God. (The coins that were used for tithes did not have Caesar's image on them, but the coins that were used for taxes did.)
Jesus is setting out a conservative and conciliatory view - the radical view was to resist. These taxes were oppressive and so it's hard to imagine Jesus approving of them considering what he said and did about similar oppression by the Temple system - but Jesus was not interested in stirring up political revolt, and he wasn't interested in getting into an argument with his opponents about it.

This passage does highlight something about conservatives - which is the belief that different institutions play different roles. For example, there is a way to help the poor, and a way not to.

The currency we use bear the images of past Caesars -of past Presidents, and other important figures and symbols central to America's identity as an independent federal republic.  So yes, the money we use does belong to the federal government.

Those symbols speak of liberty and republicanism, which is the opposite of the imperialism of Caesar.  Our currency bears images of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson (they would not have approved of being there) who fought against the idea that all wealth belongs to the king. 
If you want to use this passage to justify the government owning all money, you also have to accept as normative the authoritarianism behind Caesar's imperial economy.
Logged
The Mikado
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 21,677


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2012, 01:22:08 AM »

Those symbols speak of liberty and republicanism, which is the opposite of the imperialism of Caesar.  Our currency bears images of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson (they would not have approved of being there) who fought against the idea that all wealth belongs to the king. 
If you want to use this passage to justify the government owning all money, you also have to accept as normative the authoritarianism behind Caesar's imperial economy.

Carry a lot of two dollar bills?

To Frodo: taking the concept at face value (all coins with Tiberius Caesar's face on them belong to the state) is a rather absurd proposition, as it would rule out any sort of economy whatsoever.
Logged
Joe Republic
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 40,042
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2012, 01:33:05 AM »

Those symbols speak of liberty and republicanism, which is the opposite of the imperialism of Caesar.  Our currency bears images of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson (they would not have approved of being there) who fought against the idea that all wealth belongs to the king. 
If you want to use this passage to justify the government owning all money, you also have to accept as normative the authoritarianism behind Caesar's imperial economy.

Carry a lot of two dollar bills?

I don't, but I have a jar full of nickels.  Wink
Logged
🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸
shua
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 25,664
Nepal


Political Matrix
E: 1.29, S: -0.70

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2012, 01:47:20 AM »

Those symbols speak of liberty and republicanism, which is the opposite of the imperialism of Caesar.  Our currency bears images of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson (they would not have approved of being there) who fought against the idea that all wealth belongs to the king. 
If you want to use this passage to justify the government owning all money, you also have to accept as normative the authoritarianism behind Caesar's imperial economy.

Carry a lot of two dollar bills?

To Frodo: taking the concept at face value (all coins with Tiberius Caesar's face on them belong to the state) is a rather absurd proposition, as it would rule out any sort of economy whatsoever.
Sort of - but unlike today, the economy wasn't completely mediated through a single currency. 
(currency is standard issue money - it isn't limited to paper)
Logged
courts
Ghost_white
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,466
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2012, 02:33:53 PM »

How do you reconcile Jesus' teachings with your beliefs? I don't think the average conservative believes in or obeys the Golden Rule or loves his neighbor as himself. Giving tax cuts to the rich and turning the poor and immigrants away isn't very Christian in my book.

Thoughts?
your post is why i am opposed to christianity, beyond mere disbelief. i view it as inherently justifying egalitarian and self-hating tendencies in the west, to a greater extent than many other myths. granted it can be interpreted differently, in a way that is not liberal. but the potential is there and has clearly manifested itself in various left-wing traditions and humanism. hence i agree with the critique of christianity by a lot of the european 'new right' and right-wing radicals.
Logged
TJ in Oregon
TJ in Cleve
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,952
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.13, S: 6.96

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2012, 06:25:09 PM »

How do you reconcile Jesus' teachings with your beliefs? I don't think the average conservative believes in or obeys the Golden Rule or loves his neighbor as himself. Giving tax cuts to the rich and turning the poor and immigrants away isn't very Christian in my book.

Thoughts?
your post is why i am opposed to christianity, beyond mere disbelief. i view it as inherently justifying egalitarian and self-hating tendencies in the west, to a greater extent than many other myths. granted it can be interpreted differently, in a way that is not liberal. but the potential is there and has clearly manifested itself in various left-wing traditions and humanism. hence i agree with the critique of christianity by a lot of the european 'new right' and right-wing radicals.

I'll agree with the self-hating part being inherent in Christianity, but not equality, at least in the modern political sense. The Gospels are full of examples of Jesus helping the poor and curing the sick, but he doesn't campaign for political action in any meaningful way. The whole notion of an egalitarian society would have been completely foreign at that time. The Bible doesn't deal with discrimination in the same way as a modern society would, and advocates discrimination against non-believers if anything. A better description of the appropriate way to deal with the poor would be "solidarity" than "equality" (at least political equality).

If you interpret literally Jesus' statements about the camel going through the eye of the needle (see this thread) or his command to the rich man to give everything to the poor to be literal and universal, neither political party fits either at all.

The problem you run into more than anything else is that Jesus taught to a small, persecuted minority primarily about how to deal with their interpersonal relationships. He gave little if any instruction about how to operate a Christian nation or government, only how to treat individual people.
Logged
HagridOfTheDeep
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,717
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -6.19, S: -4.35

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2012, 08:43:39 PM »

I don't think the average conservative believes in or obeys the Golden Rule or loves his neighbor as himself. Giving tax cuts to the rich and turning the poor and immigrants away isn't very Christian in my book.

"Your book" is the liberal playbook, and you're bringing religion into the debate to try to undercut our message.

The answer is, everything is subjective. While you may not believe that conservative tax policies are very Christian, many of us do.

We don't give tax breaks to the rich because we love rich people more than our neighbors. We give tax cuts to the rich because we believe it's a good way to lift up our neighbours along with the whole of society. And in that sense, you might see we are actively fighting for our neighbours. I think it's absurd to suggest that conservatives, in particular, aren't neghbourly or charitable.
Logged
LastVoter
seatown
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,322
Thailand


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2012, 01:52:49 AM »

I don't think the average conservative believes in or obeys the Golden Rule or loves his neighbor as himself. Giving tax cuts to the rich and turning the poor and immigrants away isn't very Christian in my book.

"Your book" is the liberal playbook, and you're bringing religion into the debate to try to undercut our message.

The answer is, everything is subjective. While you may not believe that conservative tax policies are very Christian, many of us do.

We don't give tax breaks to the rich because we love rich people more than our neighbors. We give tax cuts to the rich because we believe it's a good way to lift up our neighbours along with the whole of society. And in that sense, you might see we are actively fighting for our neighbours. I think it's absurd to suggest that conservatives, in particular, aren't neghbourly or charitable.
Like I said, conservative christians are just deluded people in two unrelated areas.
Logged
HagridOfTheDeep
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,717
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -6.19, S: -4.35

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2012, 02:31:52 AM »

Is it so hard to accept that other people might have a different point of view because they truly believe it's right?

Call us deluded all you want. But if we can personally reconcile our faith with our politics, it's pretty petty to swoop in like some big authority and rule that they're unrelated.

Logged
Insula Dei
belgiansocialist
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,326
Belgium


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2012, 03:08:36 PM »

Uh,... There's no such thing as a 'christian' tax code? (What there isn't either, of course, is a limit on what christianity requires from us when it comes to helping the other, nor is that requirement restricted to purely material needs.)
Logged
H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
Alfred F. Jones
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,075
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2012, 04:29:29 PM »

I don't think the average conservative believes in or obeys the Golden Rule or loves his neighbor as himself. Giving tax cuts to the rich and turning the poor and immigrants away isn't very Christian in my book.

"Your book" is the liberal playbook, and you're bringing religion into the debate to try to undercut our message.

The answer is, everything is subjective. While you may not believe that conservative tax policies are very Christian, many of us do.

We don't give tax breaks to the rich because we love rich people more than our neighbors. We give tax cuts to the rich because we believe it's a good way to lift up our neighbours along with the whole of society. And in that sense, you might see we are actively fighting for our neighbours. I think it's absurd to suggest that conservatives, in particular, aren't neghbourly or charitable.

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." -- Matthew 19:24

I don't think taking away the safety net to pay for tax cuts for the rich is in line with what Jesus actually taught.
Logged
courts
Ghost_white
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,466
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2012, 05:54:59 PM »

How do you reconcile Jesus' teachings with your beliefs? I don't think the average conservative believes in or obeys the Golden Rule or loves his neighbor as himself. Giving tax cuts to the rich and turning the poor and immigrants away isn't very Christian in my book.

Thoughts?
your post is why i am opposed to christianity, beyond mere disbelief. i view it as inherently justifying egalitarian and self-hating tendencies in the west, to a greater extent than many other myths. granted it can be interpreted differently, in a way that is not liberal. but the potential is there and has clearly manifested itself in various left-wing traditions and humanism. hence i agree with the critique of christianity by a lot of the european 'new right' and right-wing radicals.

I'll agree with the self-hating part being inherent in Christianity, but not equality, at least in the modern political sense. The Gospels are full of examples of Jesus helping the poor and curing the sick, but he doesn't campaign for political action in any meaningful way. The whole notion of an egalitarian society would have been completely foreign at that time. The Bible doesn't deal with discrimination in the same way as a modern society would, and advocates discrimination against non-believers if anything. A better description of the appropriate way to deal with the poor would be "solidarity" than "equality" (at least political equality).

If you interpret literally Jesus' statements about the camel going through the eye of the needle (see this thread) or his command to the rich man to give everything to the poor to be literal and universal, neither political party fits either at all.

The problem you run into more than anything else is that Jesus taught to a small, persecuted minority primarily about how to deal with their interpersonal relationships. He gave little if any instruction about how to operate a Christian nation or government, only how to treat individual people.
when i say egalitarian i mean more so than in a literal sense of policy prescription or ideology. christianity has been commonly interpreted as holding that people are fundamentally wicked and only through christ could all people be saved, even the most outcast and hated groups. it was a stark departure from the much more regional-minded and tribal paganism of the era, or judaism for that matter. further the ethos of christianity was more focused on self sacrifice and the glorification of the 'meek' than the strong and the conventionally heroic (i.e. the warrior, the conqueror, the journeyman). it is therefore easy to see where much of the humanism and left/liberal notions are derived from christianity, even among many on the left profess to be strictly secular or anti-christian materialists.
Logged
Nichlemn
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,920


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2012, 08:57:27 PM »

Uh,... There's no such thing as a 'christian' tax code? (What there isn't either, of course, is a limit on what christianity requires from us when it comes to helping the other, nor is that requirement restricted to purely material needs.)

This. Contemporary political debate is about where to draw the lines on the extensiveness of government programs. I don't see any evidence why Jesus would think a top tax rate of 39.6% would be superior to a top tax rate of 35%.

 Also, see this post.
Logged
Atlas Has Shrugged
ChairmanSanchez
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 38,096
United States


Political Matrix
E: 5.29, S: -5.04


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2012, 09:23:45 PM »

I don't think the average conservative believes in or obeys the Golden Rule or loves his neighbor as himself. Giving tax cuts to the rich and turning the poor and immigrants away isn't very Christian in my book.

"Your book" is the liberal playbook, and you're bringing religion into the debate to try to undercut our message.

The answer is, everything is subjective. While you may not believe that conservative tax policies are very Christian, many of us do.

We don't give tax breaks to the rich because we love rich people more than our neighbors. We give tax cuts to the rich because we believe it's a good way to lift up our neighbours along with the whole of society. And in that sense, you might see we are actively fighting for our neighbours. I think it's absurd to suggest that conservatives, in particular, aren't neghbourly or charitable.

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." -- Matthew 19:24

I don't think taking away the safety net to pay for tax cuts for the rich is in line with what Jesus actually taught.
I think you have taken one of the most important lines in the Bible and twisted it very far from its context. It means that you should not let your wealth make you feel like God is not important. Sadly, people do not realize that. It has nothing to do with taxes, the safety net, or poverty.

Jesus said that we should help each other. If the government gave social aid, nobody would be helping each other-the government would. In a world where every single need was taken care of by the government, private charity and sacrifice-the altruism that Ayn Rand hated-would not exist.
Logged
H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
Alfred F. Jones
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,075
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2012, 09:40:48 PM »

I don't think the average conservative believes in or obeys the Golden Rule or loves his neighbor as himself. Giving tax cuts to the rich and turning the poor and immigrants away isn't very Christian in my book.

"Your book" is the liberal playbook, and you're bringing religion into the debate to try to undercut our message.

The answer is, everything is subjective. While you may not believe that conservative tax policies are very Christian, many of us do.

We don't give tax breaks to the rich because we love rich people more than our neighbors. We give tax cuts to the rich because we believe it's a good way to lift up our neighbours along with the whole of society. And in that sense, you might see we are actively fighting for our neighbours. I think it's absurd to suggest that conservatives, in particular, aren't neghbourly or charitable.

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." -- Matthew 19:24

I don't think taking away the safety net to pay for tax cuts for the rich is in line with what Jesus actually taught.
I think you have taken one of the most important lines in the Bible and twisted it very far from its context. It means that you should not let your wealth make you feel like God is not important. Sadly, people do not realize that. It has nothing to do with taxes, the safety net, or poverty.

Jesus said that we should help each other. If the government gave social aid, nobody would be helping each other-the government would. In a world where every single need was taken care of by the government, private charity and sacrifice-the altruism that Ayn Rand hated-would not exist.


Is the government not a body of people? If people are being helped, then it doesn't really matter. If you're trying to encourage people to be nice and charitable, that's great, but that's not an excuse for removing the government.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.067 seconds with 13 queries.