Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador

[Gustaf]

You really are a bunch of disgusting people. 

Moderators are allowed to say such things?

It's a moral imperative to speak out against certain things even if there is a punishment connected to it. Like, I'm fighting the system, dude. Totally.

Report it if you want.

I feel the same way about neo-Confederates.

Heh, you're one to hold a grudge. There's a nasty personal vendetta streak in you, where you go to great lengths to smear specific individuals. I was making a general comment and don't care that much about Lief and Tweed's nasty little hypocrisy.

[© tweed]

I was making a general comment and don't care that much about Lief and Tweed's nasty little hypocrisy.

I am the most morally consistent poster on this forum.

[Gustaf]

I was making a general comment and don't care that much about Lief and Tweed's nasty little hypocrisy.

I am the most morally consistent poster on this forum.

You want to enjoy Western freedoms while other people suffer for the sake of "political balance". It's one of the most disgusting notions out there.

Then again, I'm sure you're aware that your personality and ideology is a sad sham so I won't press the point.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

He does like his Cold War nostalgia.

[© tweed]

I was making a general comment and don't care that much about Lief and Tweed's nasty little hypocrisy.

I am the most morally consistent poster on this forum.

You want to enjoy Western freedoms while other people suffer for the sake of "political balance". It's one of the most disgusting notions out there.

I enjoy Western privilege because I was born white and into relatively significant wealth (thanks to the unionization drives of the 20th Century, fought tooth and nail by the ruling class that you'd have supported and are not part of the official Western Freedoms narrative that you're spewing - my grandfather a railroad worker, both parents schoolteachers/employees).  such privilieges simply do not exist for a majority of the population here -- consider, the median black household net worth is $2200!  and 1/5 of all US households have zero or negative net worth.

I don't support balance for its own sake in some neo-realist sense, but because I prefer the other side of the coin.

[Mr. Morden]

Or perhaps to them rape charges are a bigger issue than the putative wellbeing of one particular individual who has delusions of grandeur about his having pissed off the US government.

Yeah, as I said, different priorities.  They, like you, can't see the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is the fact that we've got people supporting a sleazy sex addict's attempts to flee Swedish justice, of all justices, because they like (their perceptions of) his political beliefs.

I think that's unfair to opebo.  He would probably support Assange's attempts to flee rape charges even if he didn't like his political beliefs.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Or perhaps to them rape charges are a bigger issue than the putative wellbeing of one particular individual who has delusions of grandeur about his having pissed off the US government.

Yeah, as I said, different priorities.  They, like you, can't see the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is the fact that we've got people supporting a sleazy sex addict's attempts to flee Swedish justice, of all justices, because they like (their perceptions of) his political beliefs.

I think that's unfair to opebo.  He would probably support Assange's attempts to flee rape charges even if he didn't like his political beliefs.

I don't think even opebo would consider himself, individually, to constitute 'the bigger picture'.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I feel like a weird, self-contradictory pansy, when I say that I agree with both Eternal Cynic and Gustaf/Al/Nathan. Rape is completely awful and it shouldn't be trivialized and misogyny is completely gross around here; yet it's also fairly obvious he's being pursued so stringently for clearly political reasons and that it simply pisses some people off when nations the West doesn't like do things the West constantly do.

So there, I posted to say that I agree with everybody except Tweed and Opebo. That contributes nothing and yet I wanted to post it anyway.

You are not the only one feeling this way.

[ZuWo]

What puzzles me is the prevailing attitude of some people here on the forum and other supporters of Assange that accusations of rape don't need to be cleared up if the accused person is one of the "good guys". This is a concept of law that I don't quite understand.

Moreover, Sweden isn't a banana republic. There are good reasons to believe that the Swedish legal system would handle this case in an independent and fair way.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Moreover, Sweden isn't a banana republic. There are good reasons to believe that the Swedish legal system would handle this case in an independent and fair way.

Yeah, it's not like Sweden is Ecuador or something.

[© tweed]

Naomi Wolf has been very much an FF on this issue.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/17/naomi-wolf-slams-feminists-reponse-to-the-assange-rape-prosecution/

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Naomi Wolf has been very much an FF on this issue.

Naomi Wolf.

Naomi Wolf.

'Overgeneralization abounds as she attempts to apply the microcosmic events of this mostly white, middle-class, liberal milieu to a whole generation....There is a desperate defensiveness in the tone of this book which diminishes the force of her argument.'--The Library Journal, on Promiscuities.

In an earlier holding-forth on the Assange case Wolf said that it's incumbent upon the woman to explicitly say no and that if she doesn't she's not to be 'treat[ed] as [a] moral adult'. Reading the article in question I see that she's doubled down on having turned rape apologist in the interests of supporting the snivelling narcissism of this Okubata Keisaburo-like figure (a self-described market libertarian, I might point out--among other things). Color me unsurprised.

___________

Okay, I'm just going to say this now, so we're clear: Rape is a bigger problem than anything that Julian Assange, uniquely, could possibly be in any position to fight.

[Gustaf]

I was making a general comment and don't care that much about Lief and Tweed's nasty little hypocrisy.

I am the most morally consistent poster on this forum.

You want to enjoy Western freedoms while other people suffer for the sake of "political balance". It's one of the most disgusting notions out there.

I enjoy Western privilege because I was born white and into relatively significant wealth (thanks to the unionization drives of the 20th Century, fought tooth and nail by the ruling class that you'd have supported and are not part of the official Western Freedoms narrative that you're spewing - my grandfather a railroad worker, both parents schoolteachers/employees).  such privilieges simply do not exist for a majority of the population here -- consider, the median black household net worth is $2200!  and 1/5 of all US households have zero or negative net worth.

I don't support balance for its own sake in some neo-realist sense, but because I prefer the other side of the coin.

I don't oppose unions, nor do I generally support the ruling classes. I just understand the world better than you do when it comes to what policies benefit the poor.

I understand you were born the way you are. But what prevents you from moving to one of the socialist paradises on Earth? I'm sure they'd be delighted to have you and I'm sure you would have no problem being a lackey to a proper dictator.

It'd also help your rebellious message, since most of their people want to move here. It'd be very alternative to not just support oppression and misery in theory (for other people) but actually for yourself. 

[Gustaf]

Naomi Wolf has been very much an FF on this issue.

Naomi Wolf.

Naomi Wolf.

'Overgeneralization abounds as she attempts to apply the microcosmic events of this mostly white, middle-class, liberal milieu to a whole generation....There is a desperate defensiveness in the tone of this book which diminishes the force of her argument.'--The Library Journal, on Promiscuities.

In an earlier holding-forth on the Assange case Wolf said that it's incumbent upon the woman to explicitly say no and that if she doesn't she's not to be 'treat[ed] as [a] moral adult'. Reading the article in question I see that she's turned rape apologist in the interests of supporting the snivelling narcissism of a self-described market libertarian. Color me unsurprised.

___________

Okay, I'm just going to say this now, so we're clear: Rape is a bigger problem than anything that Julian Assange, uniquely, could possibly be in any position to fight.

Nathan, you missed the memo. Rape is not the problem, it's the solution.

What could be a more important battle for the left than the fight for the privilege of the rich white man to have his pick of common women?

[opebo]

...we've got people supporting a sleazy sex addict's attempts to flee Swedish justice

Where do you get that sex addict stuff?  You mean because he apparently had sex?

I think that's unfair to opebo.  He would probably support Assange's attempts to flee rape charges even if he didn't like his political beliefs.

You are precisely correct Mr. Mordant and I both compliment and thank you for it.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

...we've got people supporting a sleazy sex addict's attempts to flee Swedish justice

Where do you get that sex addict stuff?  You mean because he apparently had sex?

Repeatedly, and with various people, and to the extent that he ended up in this situation, yes. Regardless of whether or not this constitutes an addiction, it's incredibly sleazy.

[opebo]

Where do you get that sex addict stuff?  You mean because he apparently had sex?

Repeatedly, and with various people, and to the extent that he ended up in this situation, yes. Regardless of whether or not this constitutes an addiction, it's incredibly sleazy.

Seriously?  You think that having sex repeatedly in ones life, and with several people over a period of time is 'sleazy'?  You do realize that this is the norm for human beings, right?

[Silent Hunter]

Please lock this thread.

[© tweed]

I understand you were born the way you are. But what prevents you from moving to one of the socialist paradises on Earth? I'm sure they'd be delighted to have you and I'm sure you would have no problem being a lackey to a proper dictator.

It'd also help your rebellious message, since most of their people want to move here. It'd be very alternative to not just support oppression and misery in theory (for other people) but actually for yourself. 

this inane point has been brought up multiple times, so I'll address it -- the fact as I see it is I am more able to change the course (or destroy the breadth) of US power from within than I would be from without.  this is my motivation and I seek broadly to make my living out of doing so -- in the tradition of Kunstler, Ramsay Clark, etc.

[opebo]

What puzzles me is the prevailing attitude of some people here on the forum and other supporters of Assange that accusations of rape don't need to be cleared up if the accused person is one of the "good guys". This is a concept of law that I don't quite understand.

That's not accurate, ZuWo - you are straw manning.  

...the snivelling narcissism of this Okubata Keisaburo-like figure

I'm really intrigued by this Okubata Keisaburo character you have often mentioned, and I would love to know more.  But, alas, he or she is hardly to be found through a google search.  Could you help me?  Perhaps a lengthy and detailed post explaining this reference and/or some links to translatable Japanese sources on the subject?

[© tweed]

nor do I generally support the ruling classes.

...and this here is the goof of all time.

[© tweed]

Please lock this thread.

not at all -- the passions arising in this thread are due to how this case is such a strong articulation of the gulf between the 'respectable' center-left and the actual left.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Where do you get that sex addict stuff?  You mean because he apparently had sex?

Repeatedly, and with various people, and to the extent that he ended up in this situation, yes. Regardless of whether or not this constitutes an addiction, it's incredibly sleazy.

Seriously?  You think that having sex repeatedly in ones life, and with several people over a period of time is 'sleazy'?  You do realize that this is the norm for human beings, right?

It's all relative, but after a certain point, yeah. Keep in mind I'm entirely aware that my thoughts on the subject aren't at all 'normal'.

...the snivelling narcissism of this Okubata Keisaburo-like figure

I'm really intrigued by this Okubata Keisaburo character you have often mentioned, and I would love to know more.  But, alas, he or she is hardly to be found through a google search.  Could you help me?  Perhaps a lengthy and detailed post explaining this reference and/or some links to translatable Japanese sources on the subject?

He's a character in Sasameyuki by Tanizaki Jun'ichirō (Keisaburo should be Keisaburō, sorry). Sasameyuki, which is available in English translation as The Makioka Sisters (でも、日本文学ですから、英語より日本語の方がいいですわ、ねえ、オペボちゃん？), is my favorite novel and I think you'd like parts of it a lot, though for different reasons than why I like it. I'd definitely recommend it to you. Okubata's a secondary character (a boyfriend, of sorts, of one of the main characters, Makioka Taeko) who's chiefly notable for worming his way out of most positions of actual responsibility even though he has at least a high enough opinion of himself not to do anything outright degrading (other than mooching. He does a bit of mooching). I feel that this is relevant to your sensibilities and core values and you might like the character quite a bit even if you don't have strong feelings about my favorites, Makioka Sachiko and Makioka Yukiko.

It would be hard for me to say more about Sasameyuki without you having actually read it, or, failing that, seen the 1983 movie adaptation, which is the most competent treatment on film to date (although given the novel's length I maintain that it would make a better self-contained television series). It's still far preferable to have read the book for an understanding of Okubata's character, as well as that of his more tragic counterpart in Taeko's life, Itakura.

I also think that you might appreciate that Okubata is not in fact the most unsympathetic male character in the novel, that 'honor' instead going to Makioka Tsuruko's profoundly boring, conventional, and at times pointlessly spiteful husband.

[Gustaf]

I understand you were born the way you are. But what prevents you from moving to one of the socialist paradises on Earth? I'm sure they'd be delighted to have you and I'm sure you would have no problem being a lackey to a proper dictator.

It'd also help your rebellious message, since most of their people want to move here. It'd be very alternative to not just support oppression and misery in theory (for other people) but actually for yourself. 

this inane point has been brought up multiple times, so I'll address it -- the fact as I see it is I am more able to change the course (or destroy the breadth) of US power from within than I would be from without.  this is my motivation and I seek broadly to make my living out of doing so -- in the tradition of Kunstler, Ramsay Clark, etc.

Lol. How convenient for you. I'll extend you the same respect that I expect you extend to really rich people who support low taxes, not because they benefit from it, but because it is best for society.

Now, the society I support has led to the best standard of living ever seen in human history for poor people. Your preferred society (the USSR) was one of mass starvation and genocide. But all your beloved countries (Belarus, Venezuela, North Korea and so on) have ruling classes that live in splendour.

So, please, prove your point. If you can.

[© tweed]

I understand you were born the way you are. But what prevents you from moving to one of the socialist paradises on Earth? I'm sure they'd be delighted to have you and I'm sure you would have no problem being a lackey to a proper dictator.

It'd also help your rebellious message, since most of their people want to move here. It'd be very alternative to not just support oppression and misery in theory (for other people) but actually for yourself. 

this inane point has been brought up multiple times, so I'll address it -- the fact as I see it is I am more able to change the course (or destroy the breadth) of US power from within than I would be from without.  this is my motivation and I seek broadly to make my living out of doing so -- in the tradition of Kunstler, Ramsay Clark, etc.

Lol. How convenient for you. I'll extend you the same respect that I expect you extend to really rich people who support low taxes, not because they benefit from it, but because it is best for society.

Now, the society I support has led to the best standard of living ever seen in human history for poor people. Your preferred society (the USSR) was one of mass starvation and genocide. But all your beloved countries (Belarus, Venezuela, North Korea and so on) have ruling classes that live in splendour.

So, please, prove your point. If you can.

I'm not sure what point I'm supposed to prove -- your interjection here didn't have anything to do with what you've quoted, and I'm not about to start repeatedly playing on your home turf.