Atlasia vs. The Imperial Dominion of the South

[Fuzzy]

The Office of the Attorney General is officially charging the Imperial South with:


"Breaking Second Clause of Section 7, Article 1 of Atlasia's third constitution by creating a regional curency (the "Dibble") under the Second Section of the Trojan Act."  




Let it begin.  

[Fuzzy]

The alleged violation, the second section of the Trojan Act:
 

 
The Government of the IDS shall accept the "Dibble" (gold and silver coins in 1,2,5,10,25,50,100,& 500 Dibble denominations that are produced and distributed by a private company) as payment for and service or debts owed to the region.

[Ebowed]

Official Atlasia Supreme Court Release
Nyman, DC

Writ of Certiorari
The Atlasian Supreme Court grants certiorari to hear this question of whether the Trojan Act violates Section 7, Article 1 of the Constitution.

Schedule
Petitioner has seventy-two hours to file his brief.  It is expected no later than 4:00AM EDT on Saturday, June 23, 2012.

Respondent has an additional forty-eight hours to file his brief.  It is expected no later than 4:00AM EDT on Monday, June 25, 2012.

Amicus Briefs will be accepted until 4:00AM EDT on Monday, June 25, 2012, unless the filing party can show sufficient need.

Additional time may be granted to either party upon a showing of sufficient need.

A possible period of argument (Q&A) may be scheduled after presentation of the briefs in case any member of the Court has any questions for the parties.

[Jbrase]

Members of the court and Attorney General, I ask that the case be re-named Atlasia vs. The Imperial Dominion of the South.

Please and thanks

[Fuzzy]

Members of the court and Attorney General, I ask that the case be re-named Atlasia vs. The Imperial Dominion of the South.

Please and thanks

Done. 

[Fuzzy]

        Ladies and gents, the IDS would like you to believe that the Dibble is not a currency, but infact a separate unit of barter.  This, however, is not the case in reality.  The IDS has been distributing Dibbles for months, in exchange for regular Atlasian dollars.  They've even allowed third parties to pay for government services in Dibbles instead of Atlasian dollars.  Thus, they give their own Dibbles value, which, again, are used in the private sector.  This means that the Dibble becomes representational of the South's economy, kind of like how the Atlasian currency represents the country's economy as a whole. 

         My counterpart, though respectable  , may argue that since the Dibble wasn't manufactured by the IDS government itself, and thus the South isn't responsible for whatever affect it has on whatever.   However, you must take into account that the South ordered for these Dibbles to be created and distributed, which means that the previous argument is mute.

         Your honors, you only need to look at the basics to see that the Dibble is obviously a currency.  I would like yield the floor to my friend Jbrase, and later a Q and A if that is possible please.    Thank you. 

[Jbrase]

*expect the victim's respondent's Brief sometime this evening*

[Jbrase]

Friends, Atlasians, Court members, lend me your ears.
I come to defend a law, not to praise it.

For the Honorable Justices, here is the bill in its entirety

The Imperial Dominion of the South is accused of being in violation of the following in the Atlasian Constitution

No Region may issue Coin or Currency or make any Coin or Currency other than that of the Republic of Atlasia a legal tender.

This clause makes it clear as day that two freedoms are denied to the regions:
1. The right to create coin or currency
2. The authority to declare said coin or currency as legal tender.

The IDS would like to make it clear, so that there is no doubt whatsoever, that whether we like it or not we recognize that the above is law and we follow the law.

Now lets look at the first of two areas we are alleged to be in violation of. That no region may issue coin or currency. Our region does not issue the "Dibble", a private business mints the gold and silver coins and it is 100% their choice that they do with them. we simply accept it if that is how citizens choose pay us and so that we may get some revenue out of it we allow people to buy dibbles from the IDS at any of the capitol buildings throughout the region. In short, we do not issue the dibbles, we simply sell what we do have (that we did not produce) in the same manner any government would and can sell any property.

The Honorable General Fuzz claims the IDS "ordered the dibble to be created and distributed". As my above argument points out and as our bill clearly states, we ordered nothing to be created and we forced no person to take them.

Now I shall address the second area that we could possibly be in violation of. That no region make make coin or currency legal tender other than the Atlasian Dollar. To be legal tender it must be something that is offered as payment of debt that, and this is key, must be accepted by creditors. Bingo, right there. Must. Be. Accepted. Not one person, not one business, not one entity on Nym90's green Earth is forced by law to accept dibbles as payment for debt or as money. Not even the IDS Government has to accept them, we can still refuse them and demand real Atlasian money. Dibbles may be nice looking and shinny, but they are by no means legal tender.

The Honorable Fuzz's case rests soulfully on his claim that the IDS ordered the dibbles and we distribute them. I have proven that the IDS in fact has never ordered the dibbles, and that our alleged distribution is nothing more than selling government property which is perfectly legal. I have proven the allegations against the IDS are false, and no part of the clause in question has been violated.

I ask that the court find the IDS innocent.

[Jbrase]

I now welcome any questions from the Honorable Justices.

[Fuzzy]

I now welcome any questions from the Honorable Justices.

As do I.  

[Ebowed]

I now welcome any questions from the Honorable Justices.

In Section 2 of the Trojan Act, what is the purpose of stipulating the denominations of the 'Dibble'?

[Jbrase]

I now welcome any questions from the Honorable Justices.

In Section 2 of the Trojan Act, what is the purpose of stipulating the denominations of the 'Dibble'?

I made that section in parentheses when I wrote the bill because that is explaining what dibbles are not what they have to be.

[Ebowed]

I made that section in parentheses when I wrote the bill because that is explaining what dibbles are not what they have to be.

Was there a previous reference to the 'Dibble' amongst IDS citizenry specifically outlining these denominations?

I'm also curious about Section 2b.  Would you be able to provide a rough estimate of the cost, in Atlasian dollars, to the IDS budget of the provision allowing for the exchanging of Atlasian currency for the privately minted 'Dibble'?  If the 'Dibble' is not officially recognised currency by the IDS government, would this amount to the government handing out money at a loss?  Why would these exchanges be performed at IDS capitol buildings?  What is the exchange rate?

[Proud Lieberal from Northeast]

[bgwah]

However, you must take into account that the South ordered for these Dibbles to be created and distributed, which means that the previous argument is mute.

Do you have a link to support this claim?

[Jbrase]

The locations are at the capitol buildings because, well, why not? If one had a brand new nice car it would make sense that they would feel safest placing it in their own garage. The exchange rate is whatever gold and silver currently trade for and we go from there. It should not be considered a loss as the value of gold and silver go up and down (mostly up) so when we sell it it can very well be for more than it was worth when we acquired it.

As for the exact effect on our budget I'd need to talk to a few people to find out.

[Fuzzy]

However, you must take into account that the South ordered for these Dibbles to be created and distributed, which means that the previous argument is mute.

Do you have a link to support this claim?

The Government of the IDS shall accept the "Dibble" (gold and silver coins in 1,2,5,10,25,50,100,& 500 Dibble denominations that are produced and distributed by a private company) as payment for and service or debts owed to the region.

Although the bill says that the Dibbles are distributed by a private company, they are also exchanged at the capitol buildings in the IDS, which is also a way of distribution.  On terms of creation, the Dibble did not exist until this bill was signed into law.  Therefore, demand for the Dibble must have come from the IDS itself.  

[Ebowed]

The locations are at the capitol buildings because, well, why not? If one had a brand new nice car it would make sense that they would feel safest placing it in their own garage.

So, in effect, exchange of the 'Dibble' is a service provided by the IDS government?

[Jbrase]

Although the bill says that the Dibbles are distributed by a private company, they are also exchanged at the capitol buildings in the IDS, which is also a way of distribution.  On terms of creation, the Dibble did not exist until this bill was signed into law.  Therefore, demand for the Dibble must have come from the IDS itself.  

Surely the IDS accepting and selling dibbles affects demand, but that has nothing to do with us allegedly ordering them. Creating an environment in which they grow in demand =/= placing an order.

So, in effect, exchange of the 'Dibble' is a service provided by the IDS government?

Only if you would count a local police auction as a Government Service. Ours sales may be a government action taken on our part, but not really in the same category as paving roads or fighting fires.

[bgwah]

However, you must take into account that the South ordered for these Dibbles to be created and distributed, which means that the previous argument is mute.

Do you have a link to support this claim?

The Government of the IDS shall accept the "Dibble" (gold and silver coins in 1,2,5,10,25,50,100,& 500 Dibble denominations that are produced and distributed by a private company) as payment for and service or debts owed to the region.

Although the bill says that the Dibbles are distributed by a private company, they are also exchanged at the capitol buildings in the IDS, which is also a way of distribution.  On terms of creation, the Dibble did not exist until this bill was signed into law.  Therefore, demand for the Dibble must have come from the IDS itself. 

So prior to that law, the currency did not exist?

[Fuzzy]

However, you must take into account that the South ordered for these Dibbles to be created and distributed, which means that the previous argument is mute.

Do you have a link to support this claim?

The Government of the IDS shall accept the "Dibble" (gold and silver coins in 1,2,5,10,25,50,100,& 500 Dibble denominations that are produced and distributed by a private company) as payment for and service or debts owed to the region.

Although the bill says that the Dibbles are distributed by a private company, they are also exchanged at the capitol buildings in the IDS, which is also a way of distribution.  On terms of creation, the Dibble did not exist until this bill was signed into law.  Therefore, demand for the Dibble must have come from the IDS itself. 

So prior to that law, the currency did not exist?

It appears it did not, unless someone can prove otherwise.

[Jbrase]

Burden of proof is on the accuser, proof it didn't exist before

Just because we decided to accept the dibbles from the time the law was passed, that doesn't mean the people who make them didn't produce them on a smaller scale before.

[Fuzzy]

Burden of proof is on the accuser, proof it didn't exist before

Just because we decided to accept the dibbles from the time the law was passed, that doesn't mean the people who make them didn't produce them on a smaller scale before.

Well there isn't anything to prove it existed before, so....

[Ebowed]

Ours sales may be a government action taken on our part, but not really in the same category as paving roads or fighting fires.

Why not?  According to your own analogy, it is 'safest placing' the Dibbles at IDS capitol buildings.  If one purchases a 'brand new' automobile and stores it in 'their own garage', they are storing it there to signify their own ownership of said automobile, are they not?  Are the items sold at police auctions not originally purchased through public directive?

[opebo]

...To be legal tender it must be something that is offered as payment of debt that, and this is key, must be accepted by creditors. Bingo, right there. Must. Be. Accepted. Not one person, not one business, not one entity on Nym90's green Earth is forced by law to accept dibbles as payment for debt or as money. Not even the IDS Government has to accept them, we can still refuse them and demand real Atlasian money.

I would like to know if there are any departments or local divisions of the IDS government which do in fact refuse to accept 'The Dibble' as payment?  If there were this would certainly belie the impression that it is IDS policy to establish 'The Dibble' as a currency.