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Author Topic: Atlasia vs. The Imperial Dominion of the South  (Read 1667 times)
bgwah
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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2012, 07:11:16 am »
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Burden of proof is on the accuser, proof it didn't exist before Tongue

Just because we decided to accept the dibbles from the time the law was passed, that doesn't mean the people who make them didn't produce them on a smaller scale before.

A quick forum search suggests it didn't, so I'll have to assume it did not unless you have proof otherwise.
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Jbrase
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« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2012, 11:47:02 am »
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A quick forum search suggests it didn't, so I'll have to assume it did not unless you have proof otherwise.

That is rather difficult to proof becuase as far as Atlasia is concerned its impossible to prove any business exists. If we go by a standard of something only exists becuase it is mentioned by a GM or in some other part of Atlasia that would mean that millions of business, as far as Atlasia is concerned, would no longer exist. I doubt you will find any mention of Whole Foods Market here, does that mean it does not exist?
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Ebowed
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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2012, 11:57:05 am »
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That is rather difficult to proof becuase as far as Atlasia is concerned its impossible to prove any business exists. If we go by a standard of something only exists becuase it is mentioned by a GM or in some other part of Atlasia that would mean that millions of business, as far as Atlasia is concerned, would no longer exist.

If there is no previous reference to the 'Dibble' anywhere until legislation is crafted naming its denominations and the locations where it may be obtained, why should we feel confident that it existed prior to its origins within the Trojan Act?
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Duke
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« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2012, 01:30:42 pm »
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We went through with this bill? I thought it failed?
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Fuzzybigfoot
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« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2012, 03:23:37 pm »
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...To be legal tender it must be something that is offered as payment of debt that, and this is key, must be accepted by creditors. Bingo, right there. Must. Be. Accepted. Not one person, not one business, not one entity on Nym90's green Earth is forced by law to accept dibbles as payment for debt or as money. Not even the IDS Government has to accept them, we can still refuse them and demand real Atlasian money.

I would like to know if there are any departments or local divisions of the IDS government which do in fact refuse to accept 'The Dibble' as payment?  If there were this would certainly belie the impression that it is IDS policy to establish 'The Dibble' as a currency. 


Here's a quote from section 2, clause A:

Quote
a. The IDS shall not by any means force any private business or individuals to accept the Dibble in private barter.



As you can see, they only said that individuals and private businesses could refuse to accept Dibbles.  They never said that the regional government could too. 
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Jbrase
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« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2012, 04:44:22 pm »
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...To be legal tender it must be something that is offered as payment of debt that, and this is key, must be accepted by creditors. Bingo, right there. Must. Be. Accepted. Not one person, not one business, not one entity on Nym90's green Earth is forced by law to accept dibbles as payment for debt or as money. Not even the IDS Government has to accept them, we can still refuse them and demand real Atlasian money.

I would like to know if there are any departments or local divisions of the IDS government which do in fact refuse to accept 'The Dibble' as payment?  If there were this would certainly belie the impression that it is IDS policy to establish 'The Dibble' as a currency. 

The departments and divisions you speak of are non-player ran so in this case you will have to look to region level policy. As the person who wrote the bill I can tell you the intent is that the IDS was to officially begin accepting dibbles, not that we have to them, but the option is there. If any municipalities or what have you decided they do not accept dibbles then we would have no issue with that, the choice is theirs.
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Torie
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« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2012, 05:11:09 pm »
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What is the difference between the government accepting as something of value these little trinkets called dribbles, and the government accepting Gray Goose Vodka in lieu of currency?  As noted, the key difference is whether or not the government refuses to accept Atlasian currency as payment for its debts. It does so accept such currency. The exclusive right to create a currency which must be accepted in payment of debts, does not in my world suggest an intention, or grant a right, to preclude barter transactions, even ones involving a subsidiary provincial arm of government. Now granted, the IDS government is a dumb, because it may find out that third parties don't consider the dribble toys as valuable as it does. And it must accept them from everyone, or you have an equal protection issue. So it looks like IDS is headed for bankruptcy. Maybe it would be wise ala the Euro and Greece, for Atlasia to deny the use of its currency in IDS - just kick them out of the Atlasian currency union.

One notes however that these dribble toys are made of a precious metal, so just like the value of vodka, they will fluctuate in value, meaning that IDS government will be in the business of changing its dribble price list on a daily, and maybe even hourly, basis. Good luck with that. That is the problem with toys, they come in and out of fashion.

I think I am now being escorted out of the courtroom by the bailiff.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 05:23:35 pm by Torie »Logged

Ebowed
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« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2012, 06:05:25 pm »
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We'll allow another 24 hours for any remaining statements on behalf of interested parties, as well as the opportunity for participants to answer any questions, before going to work on our decision.
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Fuzzybigfoot
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« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2012, 08:04:24 pm »
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must be accepted by creditors. Bingo, right there. Must. Be. Accepted. Not one person, not one business, not one entity on Nym90's green Earth is forced by law to accept dibbles as payment for debt or as money.

A currency doesn't have to be generally accepted by all creditors, though. There are many creditors in Canada, England, Germany, France, Spain, and Russia.  Do they have to accept our cash?  Those who trade with the currency define it.  If a currency was something that would have to be broadly accepted by everyone and everything (like you imply), we would only have one in the world.  And we don't.  The people in the south who accept the Dibble as payment define its economic strength.  Therefore, it functions as a currency to the parties that use it, including your regional government. 

And since when were people forced to accept money as payment?  It would be unwise not to use regular money, but it's not illegal.  Someone could simply accept chessnuts as payment, if they wanted to.  You keep trying to debunk this charge by implying that a currency has to be be accepted, therefore exempting your Dibble (which doesn't have to be accepted by anyone, supposedly) from being defined as a medium of exchange.  But I stress again, that doesn't matter, because a currency obviously doesn't have to be taken by everyone.   

Not even the IDS Government has to accept them, we can still refuse them and demand real Atlasian money.

Again, the bill only exempted private citizens and businesses from "having" to accept the Dibble.  It never said anything about the regional government.
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2012, 12:10:31 am »
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If it is not illegal to accept "chessnuts" as payment, why should it be illegal to accept the privately produced Dibble?

I know it sounds like a throwaway concept, but I really think this case is as simple as that.

(If my input is not acceptable, I'll retract my statement--I'm not totally familiar with Supreme Court etiquette yet. Smiley)
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Fuzzybigfoot
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« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2012, 06:34:22 pm »
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If it is not illegal to accept "chessnuts" as payment, why should it be illegal to accept the privately produced Dibble?

Well we're making the case that it isn't privately produced.  Wink
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Jbrase
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« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2012, 06:51:17 pm »
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If it is not illegal to accept "chessnuts" as payment, why should it be illegal to accept the privately produced Dibble?

Well we're making the case that it isn't privately produced.  Wink

Then I guess the very definition of the word "private" (in terms of public vs private) is at stake here. Tongue
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Fuzzybigfoot
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« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2012, 07:16:35 pm »
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If it is not illegal to accept "chessnuts" as payment, why should it be illegal to accept the privately produced Dibble?

Well we're making the case that it isn't privately produced.  Wink

Then I guess the very definition of the word "private" (in terms of public vs private) is at stake here. Tongue

Even though a private company manufactured them, you ordered for them to make the Dibbles.  So they were, in fact, created by you.  Tongue
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Ebowed
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« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2012, 10:55:09 pm »
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Thank you gentlemen, we hope to have a decision ready within the next day.
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Jbrase
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« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2012, 11:01:27 pm »
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Closing statements, written by Jbrase and Al Pacino

        You honors and people of Atlasia, as you are all well aware, I am Jbrase the defense attorney for the IDS. Now that man over there, he is the prosecuting Attorney General, and he couldn't be happier today. He is a happy man today, because today he is going after a Region. And if he gets us, if he gets us he will be a star. He's gonna have his name plastered in this months Law Review, center fold, "Lawyer of the month." Now in order to win this case, he needs you, naturally, the justice. So he is counting on tapping that emotion in you that says "Oh, what did the south do this time?. However these proceedings are not about that. These proceedings are here to ensure that justice is done. Justice is as any reasonable man would tell you, the finding of the truth. What is the truth today?

       One truth, a tragic one, is that our region was held up at gunpoint by agents of the Attorney General. Another truth is that the prosecution hasn't any proof to back its claims. Not one piece of substantiating evidence other than his own allegations. Another truth is, that the IDS has not itself nor any branch of it ever produce, nor order a single Dibble. But lets get back to justice.What is the intention of Justice? The intention of Justice is to see that the guilty are proven guilty and the innocent are set free.  Simple isn't it? Only it is not that simple.

      It is the defense's duty to protect the rights of those accused, as it is the prosecutions duty to uphold and defend the laws of the state. Justice for all. Only we have a problem here.  Know what it is? Both sides want to win. We want to win regardless of the truth, and regardless of justice, regardless of who's guilty or innocent. Winning is everything. That man there wants to win so badly today, means so much to him, he is so carried away with the prospect of winning, the idea of it, that he forgot something. That which is absolutely essential to today's proceedings. He forgot his case. He forgot to bring it. I don't know, I don't see it, do you? The prosecutions case, he's got to have one. No evidence to back up accusations at all, nothing but his own claims.

     The IDS on the other hand, your honors, has presented a case to end all cases. We have the text of the law itself, and to ensure its meanings are not mis-understood, the actual author of the law to explain it. That, your honors and the people of Atlasia, is what this all boils down to. We can back up our claims, the honorable Fuzz cannot.

I ask you now to do what is right, and find the IDS innocent.
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Jbrase
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« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2012, 11:04:09 pm »
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Thank you gentlemen, we hope to have a decision ready within the next day.
Your honor, while typing out some closing statements, not once but three times were my text deleted. Once because of the power going out, once because I clicked something by mistake, and finally because of some atlas error. I spent a while trying to get it posted, I ask that you take my closing remarks into your consideration.
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Ebowed
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« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2012, 12:07:18 am »
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I ask that you take my closing remarks into your consideration.

All of your remarks will be taken into consideration as we formulate our opinion.
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Fuzzybigfoot
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« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2012, 12:37:50 am »
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Closing statements by Attorney General Fuzzybigfoot (written by phone):



Ladies and gentlemen,


Despite the honorable Jbrase may say, the Dibble is indeed a currency.  And the IDS must answer for this crime.

Time and time again, the defense has displayed a complete disregard for the law.  Time and time again, they have misrepresented the purpose and intent of their own legislation on this very thread.  The Dibble is indeed theirs; the evidence (which has been provided by, the way) shows that they assigned it wealth, they were responsible for its creation, and I hope, today, the honorable justices will strike it down in the name of justice.

My fellow citizens, please take note of the defense's summary of myself, the prosecution.  They say I am a happy man, they say I will be gloating if the honorable justices accept my case as valid.  I will not be happy, but I will be very relieved that I will be able to look back at my record in a few weeks, knowing that my retirement has been earned.


Thank you.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 12:48:01 am by Fuzzybigfoot »Logged
Fuzzybigfoot
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« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2012, 03:49:29 am »
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lol what Al Pacino movie was that speech from again?
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Ebowed
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« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2012, 07:49:42 am »
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Sorry gentlemen, I'm running late, we'll have something ready soon.
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Fuzzybigfoot
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« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2012, 05:31:16 pm »
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So..... Wink
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Ebowed
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« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2012, 03:11:42 am »
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The Chief Justice delivered the opinion of the Court, with the Senior Associate Justice concurring.

Statement of Facts

The Attorney General has brought suit against the government of the Imperial Dominion of the Southeast (IDS), alleging that Section 2 of the Trojan Act is in violation of Article I, Section 7, Clause 2 of the Third Constitution.  The Trojan Act, appropriately named in honour of a common colloquialism to describe an attack by the Greeks on the city of Troy, was passed unanimously by the IDS legislature on July 5, 2011.  Sections 1 and 3 deal with the distribution of condoms in public educational facilities, whilst Section 2 states as follows:

Quote
The Government of the IDS shall accept the "Dibble" (gold and silver coins in 1,2,5,10,25,50,100,& 500 Dibble denominations that are produced and distributed by a private company) as payment for and service or debts owed to the region.

    a. The IDS shall not by any means force any private business or individuals to accept the Dibble in private barter.
    b. If any citizen on the IDS would like to Exchange Dibbles for Dollars or vice versa, they may do at the Capitol Building in Memphis or in the capitols of the states within the IDS.
    c. The IDS does not recognize the Dibble as a "currency", but as simply items to be used in barter.

The relevant clause from the Constitution states:

Quote
No Region may issue Coin or Currency or make any Coin or Currency other than that of the Republic of Atlasia a legal tender.



Ruling

It is the opinion of this Court that Section 2 of the Trojan Act is in clear violation of Article I, Section 7, Clause 2, despite arguments to the contrary on behalf of the IDS government by the bill's sponsor, Mr. Jbrase.  Though the wording of the legislation appears intended to circumvent the Constitutional prohibition of regional minting and distribution of unique currency, the Act nonetheless seeks to create a regional currency.  Outsourcing the duty of minting the 'Dibble' to an unspecified private company is comparable to the diversion of public funds to privately operated prisons: though the government lacks oversight into the conduction of the affair, it nonetheless remains responsible.  Through allowing the exchange of the 'Dibble' into the Atlasian dollar, and vice versa, at IDS capitol buildings, the distribution of the 'Dibble' is a function offered by the IDS government to its citizens in violation of a federal prohibition of such activity.

Noting Section 2c of the Trojan Act stipulates that the 'Dibble' is simply an item to be used in barter, rather than a currency, does not alter the effect of openly exchanging the 'Dibble' for Atlasian dollars, suggesting that its only practical use as an item is, in fact, a currency which is intended to be entirely interchangeable with the Atlasian dollar.  In addition, though the defense claims that the naming of denominations of the 'Dibble' is only meant as a suggestion, rather than a legal requirement, it seems clear to this Court that no prior reference to the 'Dibble' amongst IDS citizenry exists, indicating that Section 2 is the origin of these denominations.

The Court finds the entirety of Section 2 of the Trojan Act to be in violation of Article I, Section 7, Clause 2 and accordingly strikes it down.
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Citizen Alfred
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« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2012, 09:53:23 am »
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Well, that's over now.

Fuzzy, I disapprove of you less than I did before! That's a step up!
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There is a lot of humor to be mined from this as the mind of LBJ in the body of an 18 month old baby girl is quite hilarious.

Alfred is the Atlasian equivalent of a malevolent deity.

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