France General Discussion II: Living under Marxism
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Author Topic: France General Discussion II: Living under Marxism  (Read 307407 times)
Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #775 on: August 26, 2014, 08:32:59 AM »

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Is there a single success that we will remember from Hollande presidency in 10 years? For now, in two years and a half they only did one thing, and it's Taubira who did it.

Montebourg wanted to nationalize the Florange factory. At least it was something. What's better, a nationalized factory or no factory at all? If it had failed then it would have been its responsibilty, but he has not even been allowed to try, and everyone else is watching without doing anything.

This not related, but I have to praise Fabius for doing his job. He does not talk too much to the media, he's not getting involved in national politics, but thanks to him France is involved in every international issue.

Yeah, I've got to give credit to Taubira for one thing: she might be an insufferable pretentious asshole, but she does stick to her guns. And that's a pretty big deal in a government full of useless wimps. She didn't back down on SSM and she didn't back down on judicial reform, so kudos to her for that. Still that's far from what France needs right now.

As for Montebourg, sorry but no, nationalizing a factory is a f**king stupid-ass idea. Thank God Hollande shut him down, because the last thing France needs right now is the wasting a sh*tload of money to save doomed economic activities. This is this sort of pseudo-activistic bullsh*t (of which Sarko was also fond of) which embodies all that's wrong with French politics. Saving a factory will do a great NOTHING to actually solve the structural problems of French economy. At best, it will buy the workers a couple years before someone else will decide to shut down the plant because that's the economically rational thing to do. And all while costing the State millions that it could actually have placed on productive investments instead. Sure, you can make yourself feel good about having saved a couple workers, and this can be great PR for the media, but it's completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
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change08
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« Reply #776 on: August 26, 2014, 10:03:38 AM »

I notice Ségo seems to be uncharacteristically quiet during all this.
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swl
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« Reply #777 on: August 26, 2014, 01:18:00 PM »
« Edited: August 26, 2014, 01:42:41 PM by swl »

Saving a factory will do a great NOTHING to actually solve the structural problems of French economy.
And at the end, nothing is done about the structural problems, and nothing is done either about the couple workers. Instead these people are basically said that nothing can be done for them and that they are liabilities in the modern world.
Also, maybe 95% of the people do not care about the grand scheme of things, they want to keep their job and that's all.

So the new economy minister of the Socialist Party is a 34 years old corporate banker from Rotschild.

At least they're not trying to pretend anymore.
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MaxQue
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« Reply #778 on: August 26, 2014, 02:04:19 PM »

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Is there a single success that we will remember from Hollande presidency in 10 years? For now, in two years and a half they only did one thing, and it's Taubira who did it.

Montebourg wanted to nationalize the Florange factory. At least it was something. What's better, a nationalized factory or no factory at all? If it had failed then it would have been its responsibilty, but he has not even been allowed to try, and everyone else is watching without doing anything.

This not related, but I have to praise Fabius for doing his job. He does not talk too much to the media, he's not getting involved in national politics, but thanks to him France is involved in every international issue.

Yeah, I've got to give credit to Taubira for one thing: she might be an insufferable pretentious asshole, but she does stick to her guns. And that's a pretty big deal in a government full of useless wimps. She didn't back down on SSM and she didn't back down on judicial reform, so kudos to her for that. Still that's far from what France needs right now.

As for Montebourg, sorry but no, nationalizing a factory is a f**king stupid-ass idea. Thank God Hollande shut him down, because the last thing France needs right now is the wasting a sh*tload of money to save doomed economic activities. This is this sort of pseudo-activistic bullsh*t (of which Sarko was also fond of) which embodies all that's wrong with French politics. Saving a factory will do a great NOTHING to actually solve the structural problems of French economy. At best, it will buy the workers a couple years before someone else will decide to shut down the plant because that's the economically rational thing to do. And all while costing the State millions that it could actually have placed on productive investments instead. Sure, you can make yourself feel good about having saved a couple workers, and this can be great PR for the media, but it's completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

France already have one right-wing party (UMP). They don't need a second one, especially one pretending to be "socialist".
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #779 on: August 26, 2014, 02:24:03 PM »

And at the end, nothing is done about the structural problems, and nothing is done either about the couple workers. Instead these people are basically said that nothing can be done for them and that they are liabilities in the modern world.

...and what's your point? You don't seem to even bother arguing that saving one factory will make any difference, since this idea is blatantly nonsensical.
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swl
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« Reply #780 on: August 26, 2014, 02:28:46 PM »
« Edited: August 26, 2014, 02:32:59 PM by swl »

I thought it was quite clear, it would make a difference for the people who work there, and that  matters. Obviously I don't expect it to make a difference in my own life.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #781 on: August 26, 2014, 02:47:29 PM »

I thought it was quite clear, it would make a difference for the people who work there, and that  matters. Obviously I don't expect it to make a difference in my own life.

The only problem here is that the State's means are scarce. There days, they are more scarce than ever. And wasting them on actions that, even if they do some good, change absolutely nothing to the situation of 64,999,950 french people, is terrible policy and a good part of the reason why France is so screwed.
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ingemann
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« Reply #782 on: August 26, 2014, 03:14:23 PM »
« Edited: August 26, 2014, 03:18:43 PM by ingemann »

I thought it was quite clear, it would make a difference for the people who work there, and that  matters. Obviously I don't expect it to make a difference in my own life.

The only problem here is that the State's means are scarce. There days, they are more scarce than ever. And wasting them on actions that, even if they do some good, change absolutely nothing to the situation of 64,999,950 french people, is terrible policy and a good part of the reason why France is so screwed.

Bravo

EDIT: There are example of industries which the states should save, but they are the ones we need for society can run its infrastructure. It's not the state job to run business with a loss unless they serve a larger societal purpose. Keeping a few hundred job are not one of them.
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swl
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« Reply #783 on: August 26, 2014, 03:22:44 PM »
« Edited: August 26, 2014, 03:25:12 PM by swl »

I thought it was quite clear, it would make a difference for the people who work there, and that  matters. Obviously I don't expect it to make a difference in my own life.

The only problem here is that the State's means are scarce. There days, they are more scarce than ever. And wasting them on actions that, even if they do some good, change absolutely nothing to the situation of 64,999,950 french people, is terrible policy and a good part of the reason why France is so screwed.
Well everyone agrees that the means of the State are scarce, the whole debate is about what to do with them. Wink

This factory is a symbol. Factories are closing everywhere in France, farmers have been struggling for years, they want to close barracks in cities that only live thanks to them, etc.
There is no money to help people who make actual stuff, people who produce food, or the army, but in the other hand there is money for bankers or people who make Facebook applications? That's just insane.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #784 on: August 26, 2014, 03:28:55 PM »


Exactly! It's a goddamn symbol! And caring about symbols more than about actually finding solutions to actualy problems is exactly what's wrong with French politics. Those politicians actually think that a few symbols will magically solve everything. Whether it's True Leftist symbols or austerity symbols, nobody cares about carrying out actual policies. Because we know, making symbols is so cool! It's cheap and the people love it! Who needs to actually do stuff?
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swl
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« Reply #785 on: August 26, 2014, 03:42:19 PM »
« Edited: August 26, 2014, 03:48:48 PM by swl »

Well it's a symbol because for once someone tried to do something. Everyone else is just watching, and when someone wants to try something he is not allowed to do so by those who are not doing anything. If it had worked it could have been a example for other factories, if it had failed well at least something would have been tried.

Maybe this factory could have been saved with public money, even nationalized for a few years, and sold back to private investors in a few years. Everyone did it with the banks, even more economically liberal countries like the Netherlands or Ireland, so why can't we do it with companies that actually make useful stuff and hire hundreds of people in areas that desperately need jobs?
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ingemann
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« Reply #786 on: August 26, 2014, 03:49:58 PM »

Well it's a symbol because for once someone tried to do something. Everyone else is just watching, and when someone wants to try something he is not allowed to do so by those who are not doing anything. If it had worked it could have been a example for other factories, if it had failed well at least something would have been tried.

Maybe this factory could have been saved with public money, even nationalized for a few years, and sold back to private investors in a few years. Everyone did it with the banks, even more economically liberal countries like the Netherlands or Ireland, so why can't we do it with companies that actually make useful stuff?

Because the banks was viable as soon as we got out of worst part of the financial crisis and they could be sold in pierces, while most of the failing factories suffer from the fact, that they simply can't compete with foreign factories, and that's not something which change just because the state take them over a few years.
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swl
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« Reply #787 on: August 26, 2014, 03:59:19 PM »
« Edited: August 26, 2014, 04:09:37 PM by swl »

So because we cannot compete with foreign countries we should get rid of everything? And if one day there are economic sanctions against China, Russia or others we are only left with bankers, advertisers, artists or IT guys to feed us and make cars and planes?

If you take that specific factory it's a steel factory. It's always going to be useful at some point and it's worth some public money.
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ingemann
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« Reply #788 on: August 26, 2014, 04:09:08 PM »

So because we cannot compete with foreign countries we should get rid of everything? And if one day there are economic sanctions against China, Russia or others we are only left with bankers, advertisers, artists or IT guys to feed us and make cars and planes?

Seeing as other European countries can build cars and planes, often even with higher wages, and doesn't need to nationalise them and operate them with a loss, maybe you could do some of the things they do.

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swl
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« Reply #789 on: August 26, 2014, 04:30:58 PM »
« Edited: August 26, 2014, 04:52:40 PM by swl »

Well I really agree with you on this and Germany for example is much better at that than France. But it's based on a very long experience and it will take twenty years or more to catch up, in the meantime I prefer to have subsidized factories than no factories at all, otherwise we will have to start over from scratch. If in order to do so, we have to run a 4% deficit instead of 3%, forget about the 3% rule.

In the same time people in France have to realize that we are not the best at everything and that it's time to start learning and even copying from those who do better than us. The funny thing is that many already realized it, but those who spent their lives within 50 km^2 in the nice districts of Paris did not, and they still have a lot of power.
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StateBoiler
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« Reply #790 on: August 26, 2014, 04:56:29 PM »

Seeing as Montebourg can't himself stop austerity even if he were to become President of France because France when they gave up the franc and launched the euro gave up sovereign control of their economy to the European Central Bank, what would he do? Put a gun to Mario Draghi's head forcing him to do American-style quantitative easing/Japanese-style Abenomics?
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swl
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« Reply #791 on: August 27, 2014, 05:37:55 AM »

There is no need to convince Draghi, he is already convinced :
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-24/draghi-pushes-ecb-closer-to-qe-as-deflation-risks-rise.html
http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/08/26/can-mr-draghi-get-germany-to-spend/

The only question is when is Merkel going to yield. Wink
For several reasons, I think end of 2016/beginning of 2017 is the most likely.
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RogueBeaver
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« Reply #792 on: August 29, 2014, 01:55:05 PM »

LOL: 4 PS deputies propose abolishing the PM post.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #793 on: August 29, 2014, 02:12:07 PM »


I'd rather abolish the Presidency, tbh.
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Zanas
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« Reply #794 on: August 29, 2014, 07:21:25 PM »

Among the propositions listed by the linked article this is not the craziest. There is no point in having a PM and a President when they basically are supposed to do the same thing. As Antonio, I would rather abolish, or greatly weaken 3d Republic style, the position of President actually.

The proposition that made me laugh was "automatic membership to unions, to tackle the representation crisis"... Automatic for whom ? When ? To which union ? That is silly even by neo-leftist-but-not-that-much PS minor branch standards.
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« Reply #795 on: August 29, 2014, 08:53:49 PM »


I'd rather abolish the whole thing personally, if not the country as a whole, but they don't need my help they are doing all of this very well, by themselves, and, unlike what I thought they are doing it incredibly faster than what I expected.

Sometimes I feel like I live in a totally different country than the one in which I lived still a couple of years ago...
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« Reply #796 on: August 31, 2014, 10:44:01 AM »

Just watched Manuel Valls speech in La Rochelle.

Wow, was something.

Il leur a mis deux claques aux frondeurs, ils ont pas dû comprendre.

Was even maybe more impressive than Sarkozy speeches in 2007 (which is something).

That even could become the founding speech of a new era, at lest for the French Left.

Today France definitely met its Blair/Schröder/Zappatero and directly switches from an unconfessed 'social-democratie' to 'social-liberalism'.

And given the pace of things nowadays and the fact that country would be ready to jump in it for years now but was blocked by all its political and intellectual traditions, plus the kinda explosive energy of Valls, it could very quickly fully embrace it.

The title of this thread becomes more irrelevant than ever.

If during a while (the 2 first years in short), the right could effectively enjoys all kinds of carricature and sarcasm which made this title pretty much relevant (even if indeed all of this was quite unfair), now that gonna be tough for them to fight on ideas.

Since the switch between Ayrault/Valls in April, it was already harder for them to bring ideas to debate (and 'lol' given the total shanty state in which they are at all levels didn't help them either...), but that switch was 'only' a change imposed by some elections, to try to give an answer to 'something', but you couldn't really see any significant differences so far, and Montebourg who had became Economy Minister in between was the perfect embodiement of this. But what happened this week is totally different, 'they' took the decision of a change and one more time the fact that it happens through Montebourg, and through a decision of Valls to make his govt resign makes perfect sense and shows very well all what's going on.

First it's a clear, and certainly definitive, change of political line.

Second, it's almost a coup, the decider definitely is Valls in all what's going on. It's just crazy how Hollande looked like a total ghost in all what happened during this week.

Then, in about one week we have both an economical and almost institutional change in this country, and all of this thanks to a little nervous Catalan! (put*** d'immigrés!)

Speaking about this I must confess that I kinda like how he manages to well enough underlines and emphasize the positive face of multiculturalism, which he moreover naturally embodies (ven if he doesn't belong the immigration waves that met the biggest integration problems), he manages to do it with energy and without naïveté or empty consensualism, which pretty much flatters the 'French lyrical universalism', the fact that he is rather good at oratory art (yeah, I keep this formulation, you know...Grin), which is something that French traditionally enjoy helps him too. Such breath of fresh air is never bad to take in a country where it's precisely harder and harder to...breath.

And that's an other interesting aspect of all of this, the challenge with Marine Le Pen.

So far it was her the 'fresh' air of French politics, it was the only ones that was making move political lines, and was almost managing to become the center of all political debates.

The fact that the right became totaly shanty at all levels and that the Left was lost in all her good old petty debates, plus the personality of Hollande which so far was till the who looked like the 'decider', which is a rather consensual and kinda 'politically traditional' personality was such a wonderland for her, she could walk the path as if she was walking on the moon.

But now, with Valls clearly in the foreground, that's a big new element for her, especially if he succedes in effectively showing the brilliant part of multiculturalism.

We are here with both strong personalities, and 2 strongly enough different vision of the world, with 2 strong physical energies, who both very well know how works the modern world and how to use it.

That wouldn't be surprising at all that both of them become the 2 main political figureheads of the very years to come.

Even for Sarkozy I'd think it would be quite clear to manage a good come back now, Valls beats him on all levels where he could appear as better than others in the past. He would look like an old bitter clone. The most he would have to bring would be his international and Europe experience, but those 2 things are those about which people would be the most careless in elections, so whatever. Personally I always thought, even before his 1st election as Président, that after having taken France, the guy would try to take Europe (which would make him definitely Napoleonian...), the European scale might be his last chance to come back into the lights, but, oho, last elections were a few months ago, and, oho, the President of the Council has been elected yesterday, he'd have to be patient if he wants to do something here maybe then, and Sarkozy is all but patient. We'll see then...

So, what's left? The Left!

But yeah, what's Left?!

(oh gosh, that one is good isn't it? the Francophone I am finds it good anyways Grin)

So yeah, the Left is upside down now.

Greens haven't a bloody f**king clue where is their mind regardless the fact that their biggest figurehead, Duflot, who was in the govt till April, entered into frontal confrontation with Valls.

Commies (PCF) have hard time opening eyes and realizing that one century has passed.

Problems for those both is that they are institutionally dependent on PS, which doesn't help to know where is their mind...

'Trotskystes' (NPA and the like), well they are out of any move of politcal lines anywhere, trying to stay into the classical political games but refusing it all along, which indeed makes that they go nowhere, they keep dreaming about some eventual new 1936 giant strikes, or a new Mai 68, the only thing that they manage is to make cohabitate 19th century schemes of thought with 21st rethoric, they never managed to live their little corners in which they shut themselves so whatever.

All those forces are pretty much neutralized then, both by their internal contradictions and by our over pyramidal shut institutions. Institutionally, they can do nothing against the new govt, and all look more and more ridiculous in the eyes of people.

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« Reply #797 on: August 31, 2014, 10:44:22 AM »

(if they fought that limiting it to 11.000 characters would prevent me to make some over long bloody posts...)

So, again, what's left??

PS!

So yeah, you might have already debated it on this forum, for a while now it's within PS that most of the significant opposition to this govt is taking place with an unclear group which has a few lowlevel young figurehads labelled 'frondeurs'.

It slowly began under Ayrault, took a new turn with Valls nomination in April, and for one week they are just upside down.

They'd be a group of about 100 PS deputies that'd oppose current govt orientations, of which a core of about 30-40 deputies already voted against the govt on important matters.

So far, they'd be on a rather growing dynamic, but last week has really been messy and it's not clear yet what gonna come out of all of this.

So far too, they don't have any major political figurehead either. Montebourg is a total maverick, a big one, a loud one, but only a maverick.

But they have their Imam caché...

Aubry!

It's her who made the investitures for 2012 législatives, thanks to which a lot of those young and unexperimented deputies have been elected. And she has always been quite bitter about her loss of 2012 PS primaries against Hollande. Since Hollande election as president she stayed totally absent of the debates while it's one of the biggest figureheads on the Left, and oh, all of a sudden, yesterday she took a position against one of the new measures already announced by Valls, for her city of Lille which so far remains a strong enough stronghold for her. Several of her political relatives announced she could speak in the days to come.

A last totally wild card on the Left, Mélenchon.

So far he never managed to canalize the attention of people toward his orientations, I'd personally think it's because it remains too technical for most people while Marine Le Pen can throw any stupidity that everybody will, he remains rather talentuous though at oratory art and now what are the new trends to follow, but I'd also so far he's still been too much tied to the classical French far-left ever lost in all its contradictions and which doesn't move from a good old French far-left culture which really is annoying a lot of people in this country since it's really going nowhere while blocking the most can.

Then, here we are for the Left in a quite new but still rather unclear situation.

The very splitting Valls new positions and personality would help to quickly enough see clearer though.

Aside from the about 100 deputies who made a public call against new orientations of the govt a few months ago, you already had a new call of about 200 deputies who made a public call for the support of Valls very last orientations.

And then you have all those different streams of the left of the Left which still don't know what to do exactly, from PCF to Greenies, passing by PS frondeurs, or any people that can't necessarily be identified to a party or even to a movement (which would represent a growing number of people), with different kinds of figureheads, Duflot, Mélenchon, Aubry, who will have to find a new way to organize themselves and thus could eventually meet a big enough part of the population that doesn't want to surrender to insane directives of modern global economy.

The frondeurs already have found a kinda catchy formulation to gather people and give a kind of appealing label to their group:

Vive la Gauche!

So that's what they have been chanting during all the week-end as if they had organized a big party or won a big election...

But look, today, Manuel Valls did this big speech in La Rochelle, the journalist that was into the room said that in the beginning each time Valls was saying something that unpleased them, they were all shouting and booing, but step by step, the speech was so strong that it just made them precisely...speechless.

As I said in the beginning in French, they just took a double slap.

Personally, at then end of it, I was like...

En-cu-lé...

Maybe in several senses of the formulation Grin. Future will say...

Well, personally, that's a long time I tend to think that this country might really need to give up with all its good old leftist reflexes that don't go anywhere (and sometimes you'd really wonder about the genuinity to improve things from those who lead it) and that this country might to need to fully plunge in that insane modern bath to really feel the insanity of it and then to really touch its limits to latter really think about switching to new better things. No wonder why most of the most interesting constructive alternative initiatives come from Anglo countries, that's those who majoritarily built the system in which we are and who also might have touched the most its limits...shame on us Tongue.

But beware, we're some f**king revolutionary messy guys. So we let problems being accumulated, everybody keeps its little priviledges in its little corners, we multiplicate little corporative fights that doesn't really go anywhere, with often quite strong very personified executive institutions, which can always been endangered when you have a week enough personality.

It grows...it grows...it grows...it GROWS...

...all of a sudden...

...out of nowhere...

...

...

...

(ça va péter...!)

BAM!

(ça a pété...)

Vive la Révolution! Vive la Révolution! Vive la Révolution!

...or something like that.

So who knows what will happen, seems this country could go anywhere, for the best and the worst, and that the impact of what's happening here could have a big enough impact on the future of Europe too (as always, we've been always been the political leader of the continent...Grin)...

For the months to come anyways I think we could very well be witnessing the beginning of Valls momentum of which next regional elections, especially if they take place in Spring could very well be the top...

But whatever the past, whatever the future, for now, Ladies (?!?) and Gentlemen, let me introduce you the new leader of France (well, for national matters, international matters still definitely belong to Hollande), Manueeeeeeeeel...


...Vaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalls!
 
Ah and to make you better feel the guy, I can't resist to give you one of the best thing Duflot did when she was a minister by this comparison:


So damn relevant...

Not sure which one I'd find the less annoying personally, maybe Valls, I just couldn't bear that annoying little boy in Astérix in Hispanie...
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Zanas
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« Reply #798 on: September 01, 2014, 03:52:51 AM »

Wow. Whatever you're on, dude, I want to try it. You just can't stop writing, do you ? Speed ? Acid ? Bit of both ? Are you shaking ?

Anyway, tl;dr. For other posters here that might think something happened reading these posts, well nothing happened really. Valls is a POS, Hollande is still a Flanby, the French PS and Left are in a state of deep dereliction, and Valls isn't anyway near as relevant as Blair or Schröder have been in their respective countries, if only for the fact that he is 10 years too late.

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« Reply #799 on: September 02, 2014, 04:52:44 AM »

Anyway, tl;dr. For other posters here that might think something happened reading these posts, well nothing happened really. Valls is a POS, Hollande is still a Flanby, the French PS and Left are in a state of deep dereliction, and Valls isn't anyway near as relevant as Blair or Schröder have been in their respective countries, if only for the fact that he is 10 years too late.



Heck, 20 years.
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