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| | |-+  Citizens! United! Will Never Be Defeated!
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Author Topic: Citizens! United! Will Never Be Defeated!  (Read 1734 times)
WhyteRain
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« on: June 25, 2012, 01:21:19 pm »
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As a states-righter, I disagree with the decision and the "incorporation doctrine" (that the 14th Amendment sets the federal "Bill of Rights" as "minimum standards" for state governments) that made this decision inevitable.  First Amendment advocates should be cheered though.

State corporate campaign spending limits rejected
By MARK SHERMAN
Associated Press
 
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court on Monday turned away a plea to revisit its 2-year-old campaign finance decision in the Citizens United case and instead struck down a Montana law limiting corporate campaign spending.
 
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SUPREME_COURT_CAMPAIGN_FINANCE_MONTANA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-06-25-10-07-37
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« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2012, 01:34:36 pm »
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And there you have it, folks. American democracy is dead.
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2012, 02:02:49 pm »
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The same provision in IL campaign finance law had been successfully overturned this spring is federal district court. The plaintiff was Personal PAC, a wealthy pro-choice lobby group. MT took it all the way to SCOTUS, but the result is the same.
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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2012, 02:05:49 pm »
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And there you have it, folks. American democracy is dead.
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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2012, 02:10:10 pm »
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This is why we Occupy.
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« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2012, 02:15:26 pm »
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Given that 4 of the 5 largest funded organizations by the 1 percent of the 1 percent are leftist, I don't see why.

Are you trying to convince us that the Party of Kerry and Pelosi and Reid is the party of the little people? Please.
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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2012, 02:45:21 pm »
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Given that 4 of the 5 largest funded organizations by the 1 percent of the 1 percent are leftist, I don't see why.

Are you trying to convince us that the Party of Kerry and Pelosi and Reid is the party of the little people? Please.
I don't believe anyone claimed that the Democrats are one whit better than the Republicans.
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« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2012, 03:39:52 pm »
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And there you have it, folks. American democracy is dead.

I'm ready to join you in supporting the end of the "incorporation doctrine" that mandated this decision.

But I think you'd prefer to have it just selectively implemented, the way it used to be.

Incorporation of the Bill of Rights
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The incorporation of the Bill of Rights (or incorporation for short) is the process by which American courts have applied portions of the U.S. Bill of Rights to the states. Prior to the 1890s, the Bill of Rights was held only to apply to the federal government. Under the incorporation doctrine, most provisions of the Bill of Rights now also apply to the state and local governments, by virtue of the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution.
 
Prior to the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment and the development of the incorporation doctrine, the Supreme Court in 1833 held in Barron v. Baltimore that the Bill of Rights applied only to the federal, but not any state governments. Even years after the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Supreme Court in United States v. Cruikshank still held that the First and Second Amendment did not apply to state governments. However, beginning in the 1920s, a series of United States Supreme Court decisions interpreted the Fourteenth Amendment to "incorporate" most portions of the Bill of Rights, making these portions, for the first time, enforceable against the state governments[/color]
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Purch
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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2012, 04:00:34 pm »
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American democracy died a long time ago, especially when lobbying started gaining influence for interest groups. Bigger money is just a way to reaffirm what we already know, that there's only a small minority of politicians who aren't heavily influenced by outside money. I mean Public unions have basically taken millions of dollars from union members, as a way to buy influence over legislation in the democratic party whiles the big Corporation downers donate to republic campaigns to protect themselves from anti-business regulation.

Anyhow random question. Did Citizens united completely overturn McCain-Feingold? Or are certain parts of it maintained
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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2012, 04:14:06 pm »
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It's not the Incorporation Doctrine that's flawed, it's the precedent-defying interpretation of the First Amendment from Citizens United itself.
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2012, 04:26:13 pm »
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I kind of get the feeling that if the electoral college were eliminated then big money would have much less of an impact considering most campaign money is used to target a small number of swing states. If every vote counts the same than the money would have to be divided between basically all the states.
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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2012, 06:33:15 pm »
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And there you have it, folks. American democracy is dead.

This quote right here. The Supreme Court just ensured that the ultra-rich will be able to control all but a few elections.
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muon2
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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2012, 06:45:52 pm »
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And there you have it, folks. American democracy is dead.

This quote right here. The Supreme Court just ensured that the ultra-rich will be able to control all but a few elections.

But the individual ultra-rich have had that power confirmed to them since the 70's. CU only extends that same ability to groups that together can match the wealth of individuals.
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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2012, 07:09:12 pm »
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And there you have it, folks. American democracy is dead.

This quote right here. The Supreme Court just ensured that the ultra-rich will be able to control all but a few elections.

But the individual ultra-rich have had that power confirmed to them since the 70's. CU only extends that same ability to groups that together can match the wealth of individuals.

Well, sure, for unions maybe. But the ultra-rich are usually involved in corporations in some way, so Citizens United confirms how powerful they are.
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The Mikado
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« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2012, 08:15:42 pm »
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Incorporation (which has been around since Gitlow 90 years ago) is a pretty logical conclusion of the 14th Amendment and overturning it would overturn...pretty much the entirety of Fourth and Fifth Amendment jurisprudence. 
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« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2012, 08:40:19 pm »
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And there you have it, folks. American democracy is dead.

This quote right here. The Supreme Court just ensured that the ultra-rich will be able to control all but a few elections.

The "Ultra Rich" are supporting both sides with big money.
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« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2012, 09:38:31 pm »
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Well, thank goodness.

This is why we Occupy.

...except, as I have pointed out numerous times, the Occupy movement no longer has influence. (I want to say dead, but you've pointed out there are a few insignificant surviving circles, so I'll just say it's in an irreversible coma).

American democracy died a long time ago, especially when lobbying started gaining influence for interest groups.

Two questions:
a) Certain lobbyists/lobbying practices may be distasteful, but how does that kill democracy?
b) ...and, how is American democracy dead, considering Americans still vote in free and fair elections, and for two rather different parties? And are also allowed to influence those parties through primaries?
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« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2012, 09:57:50 pm »
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...except, as I have pointed out numerous times, the Occupy movement no longer has influence.

Proof?
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« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2012, 12:37:05 am »
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So what you're saying is that you're the one person who actually cares about state's rights rather than it only mattering where it helps the right-wing?
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« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2012, 01:28:18 am »
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So what you're saying is that you're the one person who actually cares about state's rights rather than it only mattering where it helps the right-wing?

JFern, this guy is literally saying that the Bill of Rights in general should not be binding on state governments.
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« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2012, 11:19:39 am »
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...except, as I have pointed out numerous times, the Occupy movement no longer has influence.

Proof?

The proof is that in the US, when an organization matters it either:
a) has a lot of money with which to buy advertisements, or
b) gets free media attention

Occupy neither has money nor does it get media attention anymore. (If, as you've put forward, the media was actually afraid of Occupy, it would be demonized consistently, like what they do to Obama on Fox News -- but, it doesn't, because nobody's afraid anymore). Therefore, Occupy no longer matters.

Also, most of the people involved in Occupy have moved on with their lives, although I see you haven't.
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« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2012, 01:34:14 pm »
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And there you have it, folks. American democracy is dead.

This quote right here. The Supreme Court just ensured that the ultra-rich will be able to control all but a few elections.

The "Ultra Rich" are supporting both sides with big money.

Of course; when did I ever say they didn't? Obama (for example) has gotten a lot more corporate money than union money. That's why I believe this decision is so terrible; because it ensures that both sides are bought and paid for.

Incorporation (which has been around since Gitlow 90 years ago) is a pretty logical conclusion of the 14th Amendment and overturning it would overturn...pretty much the entirety of Fourth and Fifth Amendment jurisprudence. 

How so? I don't follow most Supreme Court decisions and precedent, but how would overturning the idea that non-human entities (like corporations and unions) are legally persons overturn the Fourth and Fifth Amendment?
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« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2012, 01:42:03 pm »

Incorporation (which has been around since Gitlow 90 years ago) is a pretty logical conclusion of the 14th Amendment and overturning it would overturn...pretty much the entirety of Fourth and Fifth Amendment jurisprudence. 

How so? I don't follow most Supreme Court decisions and precedent, but how would overturning the idea that non-human entities (like corporations and unions) are legally persons overturn the Fourth and Fifth Amendment?

Incorporation here has nothing to do with whether corporations are people, but whether the XIVth Amendment caused the Bill of Rights to apply to the State governments as well as the Federal government.
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« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2012, 05:56:02 pm »
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Incorporation (which has been around since Gitlow 90 years ago) is a pretty logical conclusion of the 14th Amendment and overturning it would overturn...pretty much the entirety of Fourth and Fifth Amendment jurisprudence. 

How so? I don't follow most Supreme Court decisions and precedent, but how would overturning the idea that non-human entities (like corporations and unions) are legally persons overturn the Fourth and Fifth Amendment?

Incorporation here has nothing to do with whether corporations are people, but whether the XIVth Amendment caused the Bill of Rights to apply to the State governments as well as the Federal government.

Yeah, it's confusing because the word has 'corporation' in it and we're discussing Citizens United, but 'incorporation against the states' refers to something entirely different and has been relatively uncontroversial as a concept for a while now (it's just when it's to be used that there have been controversies around).
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