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Author Topic: When will Israel ever be an issue?  (Read 2235 times)
The Ex-Factor
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« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2012, 01:22:53 am »
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How influential is J Street really though? It seems to me that AIPAC and the likes of Haim Saban still dominate the Democratic party.

Is there any recent polling on opinions of Palestine and Israel that breaks down by age by party? 18-29 Democrats are most likely less supportive of Israel then their elders, but it'd be nice to see how significant that discrepancy is.

edit: An older poll from Gallup has some better crosstabs:
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 01:27:40 am by XPostFactor99 »Logged
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« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2012, 09:48:13 am »
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I can't understand how a left-wing/liberal person can be pro-Israel.  Don't liberals usually stand for international law and human rights?
I also stand for gay rights, economic welfare, health care for all, and other progressive ideals, which Israel follows quite a bit. Also, I don't even know if Israel has committed any more war crimes than the Palestinians have. I mean, I'm not one of those right-wingers who thinks Israel is perfect, it has its problems, but it's the one of the only democracies in the middle east, and is one of, and quite likely the most, progressive country in the middle east.
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« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2012, 10:53:56 am »
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I can't understand how a left-wing/liberal person can be pro-Israel.  Don't liberals usually stand for international law and human rights?
I also stand for gay rights, economic welfare, health care for all, and other progressive ideals, which Israel follows quite a bit. Also, I don't even know if Israel has committed any more war crimes than the Palestinians have. I mean, I'm not one of those right-wingers who thinks Israel is perfect, it has its problems, but it's the one of the only democracies in the middle east, and is one of, and quite likely the most, progressive country in the middle east.

Israeli trigger-happiness has directly led to more support for Islamists and dictators. It is well and good that it is a democracy, and yes its opponents are usually worse, but that doesn't excuse its overly jingoistic foreign policy and its absurd treatment of the Palestinians.
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« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2012, 11:17:51 am »
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I can't understand how a left-wing/liberal person can be pro-Israel.  Don't liberals usually stand for international law and human rights?
I also stand for gay rights, economic welfare, health care for all, and other progressive ideals, which Israel follows quite a bit. Also, I don't even know if Israel has committed any more war crimes than the Palestinians have. I mean, I'm not one of those right-wingers who thinks Israel is perfect, it has its problems, but it's the one of the only democracies in the middle east, and is one of, and quite likely the most, progressive country in the middle east.

Israeli trigger-happiness has directly led to more support for Islamists and dictators. It is well and good that it is a democracy, and yes its opponents are usually worse, but that doesn't excuse its overly jingoistic foreign policy and its absurd treatment of the Palestinians.

The problem is that a majority of Arabs refuse to accept Israel's right to exist, leading to a more aggresive (understandably) Israeli foreign policy, which in turn leads to more Arab resentment. Its a vicious cycle.
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Dereich
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« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2012, 01:17:36 pm »
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I can't understand how a left-wing/liberal person can be pro-Israel.  Don't liberals usually stand for international law and human rights?
I also stand for gay rights, economic welfare, health care for all, and other progressive ideals, which Israel follows quite a bit. Also, I don't even know if Israel has committed any more war crimes than the Palestinians have. I mean, I'm not one of those right-wingers who thinks Israel is perfect, it has its problems, but it's the one of the only democracies in the middle east, and is one of, and quite likely the most, progressive country in the middle east.

Israeli trigger-happiness has directly led to more support for Islamists and dictators. It is well and good that it is a democracy, and yes its opponents are usually worse, but that doesn't excuse its overly jingoistic foreign policy and its absurd treatment of the Palestinians.

The problem is that a majority of Arabs refuse to accept Israel's right to exist, leading to a more aggressive (understandably) Israeli foreign policy, which in turn leads to more Arab resentment. Its a vicious cycle.

Exactly. And its one which could only be broken by either politically painful sacrifices on both sides (as likely as hell freezing over) or a powerful, neutral third party cracking heads together making them both sacrifice, a task which the US has failed very, very badly at.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 01:37:21 pm by Dereich »Logged
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« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2012, 01:34:14 pm »
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while the numbers may not have budged pro-Palestinian activism has surged on the American left in the last 8-10 years.  so should a geopolitical event bring the issue to the fore, an infrastructure is there to take advantage of it.
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« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2012, 01:36:21 pm »
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Short of Israel attacking the United States or openly becoming an ally of an enemy regime, I doubt it will ever happen.
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« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2012, 09:11:50 pm »
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Speaking of Israel...



Thought that was sorta interesting...
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« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2012, 09:15:55 pm »
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Short of Israel attacking the United States or openly becoming an ally of an enemy regime, I doubt it will ever happen.

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« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2012, 06:20:15 am »
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Israel is a great country, I don't want it to ever become an issue.
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« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2012, 10:11:50 am »
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Israel is a great country, I don't want it to ever become an issue.

A great country doing some very evil things.
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« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2012, 05:20:29 pm »
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Israel is a great country, I don't want it to ever become an issue.

You're either ignorant or an HP.
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« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2012, 05:28:02 pm »
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Israel is a great country, I don't want it to ever become an issue.

I'll echo this, but I'll add the qualifier 'unless it becomes radically different than it is now.'

A great country doing some very evil things.

Like...?

You're either ignorant or an HP.

I've read enough of your posts to know in your head I fit into the second category Smiley
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« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2012, 05:44:43 pm »
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A great country doing some very evil things.

Like...?

Like this.
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« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2012, 05:53:54 pm »
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<snicker>
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« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2012, 05:58:28 pm »
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Could you be more specific? It's a rather long article.
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Illegally selling arms to North Korea, providing most of the money to anti-Morales rebels in Bolivia, and using the remainder as hush money for his three ex-mistrisses. 
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« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2012, 06:07:23 pm »
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This comes to mind as just one example.
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« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2012, 06:25:58 pm »
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Israel would totally have allowed them to go to Gaza if they had agreed to be inspected at Ashdod. You don't think it was rather suspicious they refused to be inspected?
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« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2012, 06:42:00 pm »
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Israel would totally have allowed them to go to Gaza if they had agreed to be inspected at Ashdod. You don't think it was rather suspicious they refused to be inspected?

They were carrying goods that Israel prohibits in Gaza and that would be removed on inspection, such as cement, wood, iron, animal medications, musical instruments, notebooks, books, candles, crayons, clothing, cups, cutlery, crockery, refrigerators, washing machines, glasses, light bulbs, matches, needles, sheets, blankets, shoes, mattresses, spare parts, threads, fuel, ginger, chocolate, lentils, tomato paste, juice, fishing rods, hatcheries, wheelchairs, hearing aids, glass, steel, bitumen, paint, doors, pipes, generators, electrical cables, and electrical poles (not saying they were carrying all of these, but certainly some of them). The humanitarian need of such was what caused them to press on.
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« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2012, 07:11:46 pm »
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     I find the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis to be deeply concerning. The fact that so many people even on this forum don't seem to see it makes me think that many people will accept just about any kind of conduct out of the allies of the United States government.
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Free Palestine
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« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2012, 09:22:30 pm »
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Israel is a great country, I don't want it to ever become an issue.

I'll echo this, but I'll add the qualifier 'unless it becomes radically different than it is now.'\

You are aware that Israel violates international law, right?
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« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2012, 10:57:15 pm »
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Israel is a great country, I don't want it to ever become an issue.

I'll echo this, but I'll add the qualifier 'unless it becomes radically different than it is now.'\

You are aware that Israel violates international law, right?

I've always seen you as a hardcore national sovereignty type.  When did you start caring (or recognizing the legitimacy of) "international law?"
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« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2012, 01:54:19 am »
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Israel is a great country, I don't want it to ever become an issue.

I'll echo this, but I'll add the qualifier 'unless it becomes radically different than it is now.'\

You are aware that Israel violates international law, right?

I've always seen you as a hardcore national sovereignty type.  When did you start caring (or recognizing the legitimacy of) "international law?"

When I stopped believing in national sovereignty and all that other Ron Paulian stuff.
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« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2012, 09:31:58 am »
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Ah I thought someone would bring this old chestnut of the Israel-Apartheid analogy up. Unlike in South Africa under apartheid, Arabs have always had the vote and the right to sit in the Knesset. Its restrictions on Palestinian movement into Israel are highly sensible security wise. Really I think this is a hugely overblown analysis of the situation. Also one that is perpertrated by people who are mainly on the left-wing of politics, like Jimmy Carter (whose foreign policy based upon "human rights" allowed for the coming to power of Ayatollah Khomenei, Robert Mugabe and the Sandinistas).
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« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2012, 10:23:47 am »
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Also one that is perpertrated by people who are mainly on the left-wing of politics, like Jimmy Carter (whose foreign policy based upon "human rights" allowed for the coming to power of Ayatollah Khomenei, Robert Mugabe and the Sandinistas).

Because Muhammad Reza Pahlavi, Ian Smith, and Anastasio Somoza were such better options than those three.  Right.
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