California High-Speed Rail Thread

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

For all those questioning the attractiveness of HSR connections, here a German example. Let's assume I am based somewhere near Hamburg and have a business meeting in Frankfurt / Main. The distance is around 500 km (a bit over 300 miles). By car, it takes me around 5 hours each way (including a toilet/ refreshing break, but excluding any traffic jam), which is above what I consider to be manageable for a one-day return-trip.

<snip - discussion of alternatives>

The main problem with your example is that it neglects geography.  HSR from SF to LA is geographically going to be a lot more like Milan to Frankfurt than than Hamburg to Frankfurt.  You've got those California mountains to deal with plus unless you do not care about having any other stations along the way that might make use of the tracks and thus help defray the expense, you'll be detouring thru the Central Valley

[Franknburger]

For all those questioning the attractiveness of HSR connections, here a German example. Let's assume I am based somewhere near Hamburg and have a business meeting in Frankfurt / Main. The distance is around 500 km (a bit over 300 miles). By car, it takes me around 5 hours each way (including a toilet/ refreshing break, but excluding any traffic jam), which is above what I consider to be manageable for a one-day return-trip.

<snip - discussion of alternatives>

The main problem with your example is that it neglects geography.  HSR from SF to LA is geographically going to be a lot more like Milan to Frankfurt than than Hamburg to Frankfurt.  You've got those California mountains to deal with plus unless you do not care about having any other stations along the way that might make use of the tracks and thus help defray the expense, you'll be detouring thru the Central Valley

In fact, I chose the example because (aside from me being acquainted with it) it has a lot of similarities to the California proposal:

1. The Hamburg-Frankfurt connection is mostly using already existing railway lines that have only been upgraded for speeds up to 200 km/h, namely (I) the Hamburg-Hannover railway (approx. 180 km) and (b) the Kinzig valley railway  (Frankfurt-Fulda, approx. 120 km). Only the central Hannover-Göttingen-Kassel--Fulda part (approx. 238 km) has been newly constructed as dedicated HSR.

2. Using these already existing lines implies quite some detours.  In fact, a complete new construction might at least have been some 60 km shorter (30 km less by cutting out the Luneburg detour between Hamburg and Hannover, another 30 km by avoiding the Fulda detour between Kassel and Frankfurt). As such new lines would also have allowed for higher speed, they would have reduced the total Hamburg-Frankfurt travel time to less than two-and-a-half hours. However, even the current set-up, which has been chosen to keep total investment cost within reasonable limits, is already making HSR an attractive and competitive travel option.

3. The mountains in North Hesse are quite rugged as well, and the newly-constructed central HSR link includes numerous tunnels. We may talk about a bit less of elevation to overcome compared to Sta. Clarita-Bakersfield, but the distance run in mountainous terrain (Gottingen-Fulda, approx. 150 km) should be about double as long as the Californian mountainous part.

[Torie]

[Simfan34]

For all those questioning the attractiveness of HSR connections, here a German example. Let's assume I am based somewhere near Hamburg and have a business meeting in Frankfurt / Main. The distance is around 500 km (a bit over 300 miles). By car, it takes me around 5 hours each way (including a toilet/ refreshing break, but excluding any traffic jam), which is above what I consider to be manageable for a one-day return-trip.

<snip - discussion of alternatives>

The main problem with your example is that it neglects geography.  HSR from SF to LA is geographically going to be a lot more like Milan to Frankfurt than than Hamburg to Frankfurt.  You've got those California mountains to deal with plus unless you do not care about having any other stations along the way that might make use of the tracks and thus help defray the expense, you'll be detouring thru the Central Valley

The Diablos are not the Alps.

[Simfan34]

Every Tom, Dick, and Harry seems to be lining up to make some ludicrous objection to the project.

Kings County (who knows where that is) is calling CHSRA "arrogant" for attempting to overturn an activist judge's court rulings that ruled that the authority couldn't issue bonds because it wasn't proven that it was "necessary or desirable" to to so despite a publicly-passed measure authorising the state to do so and for not filing some nonsense paperwork. The New York Times has written disparagingly about endless "environmental review" and other regulatory processes in the past.

The property acquisition process is moving slowly with eight properties owned by resisting occupants being successfully seized. In my opinion, land owners who resist selling their land for the project should not be compensated when it is seized through eminent domain- for standing in the way of progress.

Meanwhile, some absolute idiots are complaining the trains are going too slow in order to cut costs while simultaneously complaining it is too expensive. Of course, the "blended approach" is a rather depressing idea, but it is the result of too many ignoramuses and small-minded localists having too much of a say in the process.

Of course, none of this surpasses the legendary idiocy of the (usually sane) George Will in 2011,  when he said that high speed rail would be "diminishing Americans' individualism in order to make them more amenable to collectivism," which of course would be redundant as we're already Maoists as a result of indoctrination through bus, plane, train, subway, and air gondola travel.

Small-minded ignorance wins again in today's America.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Despite the right-wing media's best efforts, the voters still support the Proposition they voted for. It's pretty ridiculous that some two bit county judge is holding up the statewide project.

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http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/survey/S_314MBS.pdf

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

High speed rail wins court cases. Two bit county judges get overturned.

LOL at the stupid plaintiffs saying how the win for high speed rail is a slap in the face of the voters who voted for high speed rail and still support high speed rail.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/01/bullet-train-california-court/13450161/

[eric82oslo]

Despite the right-wing media's best efforts, the voters still support the Proposition they voted for. It's pretty ridiculous that some two bit county judge is holding up the statewide project.

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http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/survey/S_314MBS.pdf

26% are opposed even if it's free to build?

[memphis]

Less is not the same thing as free. It would presumably still be an expensive project. It's a stupid question though, as how much less is the most important part of the cost angle. I presume there are some Central Valley people who are concerned about the disruptions associated with construction and the NIMBY factor of a noisy train.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Despite the right-wing media's best efforts, the voters still support the Proposition they voted for. It's pretty ridiculous that some two bit county judge is holding up the statewide project.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/survey/S_314MBS.pdf

26% are opposed even if it's free to build?

There are some brain-dead NIMBYs and Republicans who would oppose it even if it cost negative money.

[Simfan34]

George Will once wrote a surprisingly brainless article suggesting high speed rail was an attempt to hoist collectivism upon America. Somehow we've managed to avoid the dangers of buses, planes, subways and trains until now.

[memphis]

George Will once wrote a surprisingly brainless article suggesting high speed rail was an attempt to hoist collectivism upon America. Somehow we've managed to avoid the dangers of buses, planes, subways and trains until now.

Will is hardly alone. There is a longstanding conservative impulse to attribute everything they dislike to Communism. It was slightly less absurd in the 1960s.

[Deus Naturae]

Despite the right-wing media's best efforts, the voters still support the Proposition they voted for. It's pretty ridiculous that some two bit county judge is holding up the statewide project.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/survey/S_314MBS.pdf

26% are opposed even if it's free to build?

There are some brain-dead NIMBYs and Republicans who would oppose it even if it cost negative money.

Believe it or not, some people don't like having their property seized by the government. What brain-dead idiots!

But I doubt we'll ever be able to test that claim, given that only two HSR lines in the entire world are revenue-positive.

[Simfan34]

I suppose you hate highways, too? And it is a strange assertion to claim only two high speed rail lines in the world are profitable, considering that the German ICE network regularly posts a profit, as does Korea's KTX, Japan's Shinkansen (overall), France's TGV... most of them, actually. So that's baseless.

It is utterly ludicrous when you you consider we pay upwards of $100 billion in gas taxes, tolls, and other fees each year to maintain roads, on top of $50 billion in state and local taxes, $10 billion to the Federal Highway Trust, and up to $20 billion to make up for the shortfall after all that. Meanwhile we give $3 billion to the FAA, and $8 billion for cruise ships, not to mention the billions we pour into airports. Compare that to the $1.5 billion the government spends on Amtrak per year. It's peanuts. If NIMBYs and ideologically deranged people get out of the way and allow the CAHSR to build its network along a logical route and in a reasonable timeframe there shouldn't be a problem.

I fear smallmindedness will win the day once again, however. Which seems to be the trend in this country these days.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Despite the right-wing media's best efforts, the voters still support the Proposition they voted for. It's pretty ridiculous that some two bit county judge is holding up the statewide project.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/survey/S_314MBS.pdf

26% are opposed even if it's free to build?

There are some brain-dead NIMBYs and Republicans who would oppose it even if it cost negative money.

Believe it or not, some people don't like having their property seized by the government. What brain-dead idiots!

But I doubt we'll ever be able to test that claim, given that only two HSR lines in the entire world are revenue-positive.

If we don't build HSR, there's going to have to be property seizing for more freeway lanes and airport runways. Anyways, most of the NIMBYism isn't from people whose property is seized, but would be near it.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Despite the right-wing media's best efforts, the voters still support the Proposition they voted for. It's pretty ridiculous that some two bit county judge is holding up the statewide project.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/survey/S_314MBS.pdf

26% are opposed even if it's free to build?

There are some brain-dead NIMBYs and Republicans who would oppose it even if it cost negative money.

Believe it or not, some people don't like having their property seized by the government. What brain-dead idiots!

But I doubt we'll ever be able to test that claim, given that only two HSR lines in the entire world are revenue-positive.

No I meant if the construction costs were negative.

Anyways why does rail have to pay for itself? do you think the $6.5 billion replacement for half of the Oakland San Francisco bay bridge will ever pay for itself? Of course not.

[KingSweden]

I suppose you hate highways, too? And it is a strange assertion to claim only two high speed rail lines in the world are profitable, considering that the German ICE network regularly posts a profit, as does Korea's KTX, Japan's Shinkansen (overall), France's TGV... most of them, actually. So that's baseless.

It is utterly ludicrous when you you consider we pay upwards of $100 billion in gas taxes, tolls, and other fees each year to maintain roads, on top of $50 billion in state and local taxes, $10 billion to the Federal Highway Trust, and up to $20 billion to make up for the shortfall after all that. Meanwhile we give $3 billion to the FAA, and $8 billion for cruise ships, not to mention the billions we pour into airports. Compare that to the $1.5 billion the government spends on Amtrak per year. It's peanuts. If NIMBYs and ideologically deranged people get out of the way and allow the CAHSR to build its network along a logical route and in a reasonable timeframe there shouldn't be a problem.

I fear smallmindedness will win the day once again, however. Which seems to be the trend in this country these days.

^^^^ this

[Frodo]

This is an encouraging sign:

Private investors warming to California high-speed rail

Eric Young
Reporter- San Francisco Business Times
Aug 5, 2014, 3:25pm PDT

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[MaxQue]

AECOM was named (and raided by authorities) in a corruption inquiry in Quebec.

[Silent Hunter]

HS1 passes through my home borough and I haven't heard any noise complaints about it; in addition, I've found it really useful for when I've had to take trips to Kent.

Yes, there's a premium on it, but there's something about whooshing through the countryside at 140mph that really appeals to me.

[Simfan34]

I prefer whooshing through the countryside at 220 mph, thank you very much.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

HS1 passes through my home borough and I haven't heard any noise complaints about it; in addition, I've found it really useful for when I've had to take trips to Kent.

Yes, there's a premium on it, but there's something about whooshing through the countryside at 140mph that really appeals to me.

Yeah, but you don't have California style NIMBYs or Californian Republicans there.

[Simfan34]

Or California Democrats who don't really care that much about it in the first place.

[Frodo]

The saga of high speed rail in California bears an uncomfortably close resemblance to that of Obamacare:

High Court Clears California Bullet Train But Problems Remain
 
AP    | By JULIET WILLIAMS
Posted: 10/16/2014 8:37 am EDT Updated: 10/16/2014 8:59 am EDT

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[Simfan34]

Hurray!