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Author Topic: So apparently Israel isn't an occupying force in the West Bank  (Read 2267 times)
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FallenMorgan
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« on: July 09, 2012, 04:05:52 pm »
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According to the Levy commission, which is composed of right-wingers appointed by Netanyahu.

And the commission also recommends legalizing the settlements that even Israel thinks are illegal.

Nope, the Israeli government isn't horrible at all.  Roll Eyes
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danny
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2012, 10:33:51 am »
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The Israeli government is horrible only for not doing the things recommended by this commission already. I just hope Bibi grows a spine and follows the recommendations of the commission.
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2012, 10:54:34 am »
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The Israeli government is horrible only for not doing the things recommended by this commission already. I just hope Bibi grows a spine and follows the recommendations of the commission.

Not a very high opinion of the legal, moral, and logical problems with the recommendations?
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« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2012, 12:10:52 pm »
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The Israeli government is horrible only for not doing the things recommended by this commission already. I just hope Bibi grows a spine and follows the recommendations of the commission.

Not a very high opinion of the legal, moral, and logical problems with the recommendations?

The committee thinks it is legal, but in any case, Laws should be changed to fit the wishes of the public (through elected officials) and that way made to fit in with government policy, not the other way round.

I think it is the logical and moral position, so no.
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Nathan
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« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2012, 05:48:57 pm »
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The Israeli government is horrible only for not doing the things recommended by this commission already. I just hope Bibi grows a spine and follows the recommendations of the commission.

Not a very high opinion of the legal, moral, and logical problems with the recommendations?

The committee thinks it is legal, but in any case, Laws should be changed to fit the wishes of the public (through elected officials) and that way made to fit in with government policy, not the other way round.

Rule of law, rule according to a higher law, or rule according to the law of nations don't do it for you? Also, what public? Certainly not that of the West Bank.

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I think it is the logical and moral position, so no.

Define 'to occupy', as you understand it.
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2012, 10:01:15 am »
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Rule of law, rule according to a higher law, or rule according to the law of nations don't do it for you? Also, what public? Certainly not that of the West Bank.


Rule of law- Yes, rule of law as legislated by an elected legislative branch.

Rule according to higher law- No, this is either a form of dictatorship by whomever gets to decide what higher law is, or just forcing a old laws on the population.

Rule according to the law of nations- I am against this.

Define 'to occupy', as you understand it.

Taking control of a territory that is not previously your's through force of arms and then ruling over it.
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2012, 10:19:14 am »
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Rule of law, rule according to a higher law, or rule according to the law of nations don't do it for you? Also, what public? Certainly not that of the West Bank.


Rule of law- Yes, rule of law as legislated by an elected legislative branch.

Rule according to higher law- No, this is either a form of dictatorship by whomever gets to decide what higher law is, or just forcing a old laws on the population.

Rule according to the law of nations- I am against this.

So you're in favor of a form of rule of law in which, uh, the Knesset can do whatever it wants? I don't think that's what the phrase 'rule of law' is supposed to indicate. I think it usually means something different, especially since the actions being suggested here are not exactly limited in their compass or import to people who the Knesset represents.

Rule according to a higher law just means that there are in fact constitutional or supraconstitutional principles that can't be changed on a whim to legitimate things that had previously been recognized as illegal under those principles (among other types of dick moves).

I'm not even going to get into how you apparently oppose the existence of international law, since if you really want to live in a geopolitical Mad Max (or Madlax, or both) I guess that's your prerogative.

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Define 'to occupy', as you understand it.

Taking control of a territory that is not previously your's through force of arms and then ruling over it.

Are you disputing the 'ruling over it' part or the 'not previously yours' part or both?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 02:12:43 pm by Nathan »Logged

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« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2012, 10:46:44 am »
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Nope, the Israeli government isn't horrible at all.  Roll Eyes

No, it isn't! Smiley

Define 'to occupy', as you understand it.

To take control of land belonging to another nation by military force. The problem with this is that the West Bank has been under military control, of one kind or another, since 1917, and the nation that it belonged to before 1917 is gone. The land is terra nullis; it is disputed. Discounting East Jerusalem, the West Bank is perhaps 3/4 Palestinian and 1/4 Israeli. Forcing hundreds of thousands of people to leave their homes in the West Bank simply because they are Israeli is unjust (and you know it) -- the final peace settlement should keep this in mind. (I've already noted my views on how this might be achieved.)

So you're in favor of a form of rule of law in which, uh, the Knesset can do whatever it wants? I don't think that's what the phrase 'rule of law' is supposed to indicate. I think it usually means something different, especially since the actions being suggested here are not exactly limited in their compass or import to people who the Knesset represents.

Erm...yes, it's rather reasonable to suggest the Knesset or the U.S. Congress or the f**king Massachusetts state legislature can enact the laws that are the reason they were elected. There's a reason in the US, for instance, we can amend our Constitution.

I'm not even going to get into how you apparently oppose the existence of international law, since if you really want to live in a geopolitical Mad Max (or Madlax, or both) I guess that's your prerogative.

The reason someone from Israel might reasonably oppose the existence of international law is that the United Nations has pretty much consistently unfairly singled out Israel -- even if you do think that the 'occupation' of Palestine is a horrible, horrible crime, certainly it deserves at least as much attention as, say, the genocide in Darfur did, or the dictatorship in North Korea? Here's a convenient pie chart of UN resolutions in 2006:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GA_resolutions_2006.JPG

There's also the fact that the whole point of the UN is to stop conflicts, something it has failed to do from Day One and that the LoN failed to do before it. Seriously. Name one conflict that the UN intervened to stop.
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« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2012, 11:07:10 am »
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There's also the fact that the whole point of the UN is to stop conflicts, something it has failed to do from Day One and that the LoN failed to do before it. Seriously. Name one conflict that the UN intervened to stop.

Libya, Bosnia, Haiti, Sierra Leone...
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« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2012, 11:18:24 am »
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There's also the fact that the whole point of the UN is to stop conflicts, something it has failed to do from Day One and that the LoN failed to do before it. Seriously. Name one conflict that the UN intervened to stop.

Libya, Bosnia, Haiti, Sierra Leone...

Libya - Resolution 1973 allowed NATO to intervene on the civil war, making it longer and bloodier (but allowing the "good guys" to win).

Bosnia - Funny how UN resolutions were passed in 1992 and 1993 but the actual war (and killing) kept going until 1995, when an agreement unrelated to the UN was hammered out.

Haiti - What conflict was there in Haiti?

Sierra Leone - A classic example of how the UN was totally ignored and the war just kept going till 2002.
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« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2012, 11:40:55 am »
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Oh come on Vosem, how can you dispute that the Libyan rebels were the "good guys", and least compared to their enemies? The other side was Muammar Gaddafi. The man slaughtered thousands of his own people, sponsored terrorism, and basically distributed all of Libya's oil wealth amongst his family and his tribe.
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« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2012, 12:15:11 pm »
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Oh come on Vosem, how can you dispute that the Libyan rebels were the "good guys", and least compared to their enemies? The other side was Muammar Gaddafi. The man slaughtered thousands of his own people, sponsored terrorism, and basically distributed all of Libya's oil wealth amongst his family and his tribe.

I don't think I can...I just think intervening in Libya was a stupid decision when we really didn't know who the rebels were, when Gaddafi was coming over to our side on the War on Terror (it sends a bad message to other countries...be on the US's side and we'll support rebels against you anyway), and the Assad regime in Syria was way worse and we just ignored stuff going on there, and this was before Russia had a coherent Syria policy -- if we had acted faster, Assad and Gaddafi could have been in opposite positions now. And f**king al-Qaeda-in-the-Islamic-Maghreb would never have been able to take over Azawad (a whole country) without weapons stolen from the aftermath of Gaddafi's downfall -- that too wouldn't've happened without Gaddafi's fall.

It's honestly, in my mind, one of Obama's biggest f**k-ups, equal to the health-care bill. This is why I support Romney.
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« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2012, 02:19:11 pm »
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Nope, the Israeli government isn't horrible at all.  Roll Eyes

No, it isn't! Smiley

Define 'to occupy', as you understand it.

To take control of land belonging to another nation by military force. The problem with this is that the West Bank has been under military control, of one kind or another, since 1917, and the nation that it belonged to before 1917 is gone. The land is terra nullis; it is disputed. Discounting East Jerusalem, the West Bank is perhaps 3/4 Palestinian and 1/4 Israeli. Forcing hundreds of thousands of people to leave their homes in the West Bank simply because they are Israeli is unjust (and you know it) -- the final peace settlement should keep this in mind. (I've already noted my views on how this might be achieved.)

Of course it's unjust and I never claimed otherwise. What was your idea for the final peace settlement?

I'm leery of accepting terra nullius as an argument here. The real issue is that this is an area that has at least two reasonably arguable indigenous populations, which do live in different areas, one of which is asserting varying levels of control over the other (which is also not run by hugely nice people, obviously).

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So you're in favor of a form of rule of law in which, uh, the Knesset can do whatever it wants? I don't think that's what the phrase 'rule of law' is supposed to indicate. I think it usually means something different, especially since the actions being suggested here are not exactly limited in their compass or import to people who the Knesset represents.

Erm...yes, it's rather reasonable to suggest the Knesset or the U.S. Congress or the f**king Massachusetts state legislature can enact the laws that are the reason they were elected. There's a reason in the US, for instance, we can amend our Constitution.

Okay, I'll let you know when the Massachusetts General Court starts amending the US and Massachusetts constitutions for reasons pertaining to an area that's 3:1 Rhode Islanders and Bay Staters.

I'm not even going to get into how you apparently oppose the existence of international law, since if you really want to live in a geopolitical Mad Max (or Madlax, or both) I guess that's your prerogative.

The reason someone from Israel might reasonably oppose the existence of international law is that the United Nations has pretty much consistently unfairly singled out Israel -- even if you do think that the 'occupation' of Palestine is a horrible, horrible crime, certainly it deserves at least as much attention as, say, the genocide in Darfur did, or the dictatorship in North Korea? Here's a convenient pie chart of UN resolutions in 2006:[/quote]

Bullsh**t. International law predates the UN and is the basis for its existence. The questionable priorities of the UN General Assembly notwithstanding, you can't just decide that the law of nations, which wasn't created ex nihilo by a single body in 1946, doesn't apply to you, lest other countries start to decide the same.

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There's also the fact that the whole point of the UN is to stop conflicts, something it has failed to do from Day One and that the LoN failed to do before it. Seriously. Name one conflict that the UN intervened to stop.

BRTD has already done so.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 02:44:02 pm by Nathan »Logged

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« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2012, 02:53:32 pm »
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According to the Levy commission, which is composed of right-wingers appointed by Netanyahu.

Nope, the Israeli government isn't horrible at all.  Roll Eyes

This isn't surprising at all given the right-wing government in Israel. And with the Arab Revolutions happening in neighboring countries I suspect Benny to become hardline on the Palestinian issue then he already is.
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« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2012, 03:07:39 pm »
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The Israeli government is horrible only for not doing the things recommended by this commission already. I just hope Bibi grows a spine and follows the recommendations of the commission.

And you people still wonder why the Palestinians hate you so much.
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« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2012, 03:37:56 pm »
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According to the Levy commission, which is composed of right-wingers appointed by Netanyahu.

Nope, the Israeli government isn't horrible at all.  Roll Eyes

This isn't surprising at all given the right-wing government in Israel. And with the Arab Revolutions happening in neighboring countries I suspect Benny to become hardline on the Palestinian issue then he already is.

     The right-wing's just about everyone over in Israel, then. Among Israelis, only Hadash & Meretz are on the correct side of the issue. Neither of them are that big or powerful.
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« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2012, 04:32:04 pm »
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The Israeli government is horrible only for not doing the things recommended by this commission already. I just hope Bibi grows a spine and follows the recommendations of the commission.

And you people still wonder why the Palestinians hate you so much.

The Palestinian hate for us has very little to do with this.
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« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2012, 10:05:06 pm »
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The Israeli government is horrible only for not doing the things recommended by this commission already. I just hope Bibi grows a spine and follows the recommendations of the commission.

And you people still wonder why the Palestinians hate you so much.

No, we really don't. It's pretty clear.

There's a 4,000 year trail of blood indicating that anti-semites are very rarely placated.
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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2012, 10:50:47 pm »
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And, of course whatever disliking the people of the Occupied Territories have for the state of Israel has to do with this.  Stop being a racist zionist turd.

It rather does, since they're launching suicide bombings and they want to kick all the Jews out of the West Bank and s**t. Stop being a racist pro-Palestinian turd.
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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2012, 11:30:37 pm »
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All of you people are ridiculous.
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« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2012, 12:24:53 am »
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And, of course whatever disliking the people of the Occupied Territories have for the state of Israel has to do with this.  Stop being a racist zionist turd.

It rather does, since they're launching suicide bombings and they want to kick all the Jews out of the West Bank and s**t. Stop being a racist pro-Palestinian turd.

I'm not racist.

The zionists who claim that the West Bank is their land because they're Jewish, who turn a blind eye to the abuse of the Palestinian people, are the racists.
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« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2012, 12:39:19 am »
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And, of course whatever disliking the people of the Occupied Territories have for the state of Israel has to do with this.  Stop being a racist zionist turd.

It rather does, since they're launching suicide bombings and they want to kick all the Jews out of the West Bank and s**t. Stop being a racist pro-Palestinian turd.

The Zionist Jews are bloodsuckers who are intent on destroying the Arab people's of what was Palestine. The Palestinians through suicide attacks are only resisting the extermination of their people.

The Israeli occupation of Palestine is equivalent to the white American destruction  of the Native Americans.

Okay, you've gone out of line, seriously, "bloodsuckers"? That combined with your Gaddafi photo in your signature means you're not welcome on a reasonable forum like this.
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« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2012, 03:05:06 am »
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And, of course whatever disliking the people of the Occupied Territories have for the state of Israel has to do with this.  Stop being a racist zionist turd.

It rather does, since they're launching suicide bombings and they want to kick all the Jews out of the West Bank and s**t. Stop being a racist pro-Palestinian turd.

I'm not racist.

The zionists who claim that the West Bank is their land because they're Jewish, who turn a blind eye to the abuse of the Palestinian people, are the racists.

That's not racist either...
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« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2012, 08:38:33 am »
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...what was Palestine.

Really? when was this?

The Palestinians through suicide attacks are only resisting the extermination of their people.

How do these suicide attacks actually prevent Israel from doing anything to the Palestinians?

The Israeli occupation of Palestine is equivalent to the white American destruction  of the Native Americans.

Are you Native American?

If not, then why are you still occupying native land?
If you are, then why are you not resisting resisting the occupation of your land via suicide bombing?
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« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2012, 08:56:12 am »
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Are you disputing the 'ruling over it' part or the 'not previously yours' part or both?

The land in question was never the Palestinian's in the first, it was conquered from two countries who have both renounced any claims to the land, so in that sense there is no one is being occupied, since it wasn't anyone's land in the first place.

Having said that, there are a group of people who live on the land who consider themselves to be a nation, and the land theirs. We could call this an occupation against them, however, I still think that it is justified.
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