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Author Topic: So apparently Israel isn't an occupying force in the West Bank  (Read 2319 times)
True Federalist
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« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2012, 10:30:28 am »
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Are you disputing the 'ruling over it' part or the 'not previously yours' part or both?

The land in question was never the Palestinian's in the first, it was conquered from two countries who have both renounced any claims to the land, so in that sense there is no one is being occupied, since it wasn't anyone's land in the first place.

Having said that, there are a group of people who live on the land who consider themselves to be a nation, and the land theirs. We could call this an occupation against them, however, I still think that it is justified.

Not so.  From Article 22 of the Treaty of Versailles.  "Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognised subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone."

Palestine was established as a Class A mandate under this provision, and as far as international law is concerned, the recognition of the nation of Palestine dates to 1 July 1920, when the British transferred control from a military to a civil administration.
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« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2012, 12:55:22 pm »
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The Israeli... is equivalent to the white American...

This being the kernel of your observation - ZING!  Can't get any more blood-soaked and reprehensible than us.
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« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2012, 01:14:43 pm »
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There are few things that repulse me more than white people who decide to play "white knight" for the Palestinians while being venomously opposed to Israel and casting Jewish Israelis as "White Europeans" in order to make their point.
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« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2012, 01:16:51 pm »
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I always love the irony of the Jewish nation trying to expand it's living space to the East and expel the undesirables.
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« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2012, 01:23:14 pm »
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Are you disputing the 'ruling over it' part or the 'not previously yours' part or both?

The land in question was never the Palestinian's in the first, it was conquered from two countries who have both renounced any claims to the land, so in that sense there is no one is being occupied, since it wasn't anyone's land in the first place.

Having said that, there are a group of people who live on the land who consider themselves to be a nation, and the land theirs. We could call this an occupation against them, however, I still think that it is justified.

Not so.  From Article 22 of the Treaty of Versailles.  "Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognised subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone."

Palestine was established as a Class A mandate under this provision, and as far as international law is concerned, the recognition of the nation of Palestine dates to 1 July 1920, when the British transferred control from a military to a civil administration.

Israel itself could count as the independent nation.

And anyway, I don't really care about the agreements different colonial powers made amongst themselves 90 years ago, and as I previously stated, I am opposed to all international law anyway,so it seems a silly point to argue.
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« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2012, 01:34:28 pm »
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Both sides are HP's. Simple as that.
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« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2012, 02:38:12 pm »
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as I previously stated, I am opposed to all international law anyway,so it seems a silly point to argue.

True.  Besides, Israel only has another century or two before it fades away like the Crusader states before them that tried to colonize the region.  Israel will not be able to maintain military superiority forever.  Once the Arabs obtain military parity and unity, Israel is toast.  I just hope it isn't nuclear toast.
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« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2012, 03:09:27 pm »
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There are few things that repulse me more than white people who decide to play "white knight" for the Palestinians while being venomously opposed to Israel and casting Jewish Israelis as "White Europeans" in order to make their point.

     Which is a red herring, since one does not have to be a "white knight" for the Palestinians to see an issue here. Philosophically, I think that people should be able to choose the government they live under. The Palestinians do not want to be a part of the Israeli nation-state and that people are so cavalier about forcing them to be a part of it disturbs me.

     Considering the deep-seeded mutual antipathy that exists between the Israelis and the Palestinians, I don't see anything other than a two-state solution succeeding (not to say that that is a surefire winner either). Israel should exist as a sovereign nation, and so should Palestine.
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« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2012, 03:13:42 pm »
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as I previously stated, I am opposed to all international law anyway,so it seems a silly point to argue.

True.  Besides, Israel only has another century or two before it fades away like the Crusader states before them that tried to colonize the region.  Israel will not be able to maintain military superiority forever.  Once the Arabs obtain military parity and unity, Israel is toast.  I just hope it isn't nuclear toast.

The Crusades are rather a bad analogy; the Crusades only failed because they overthrew the Byzantines (their most important ally) in the Fourth Crusade, which was a really weird one-off. Otherwise they could well have stood the test of time. The analogy would be Israel occupying D.C., carving off large sections of the U.S. into puppet-states, and then leaving a small section existing so it can fight off the Canadian invaders. That's rather unlikely.

Israel doesn't have to maintain military parity or superiority; Israel has to maintain enough strength that if it truly looks like Israel will fall, Israel can look at its opponents and say, "We're taking you with us." Israel's present tech will be sufficient for that until Asimov's nuclear force-field defense is invented.

And Israel's Arab states won't catch up to Israel within the foreseeable future -- I want to say 'our lifetimes' but the history can be weird (see: Fourth Crusade) and many of us are very young.

I just remembered, hahaha: the Catholic Church formally apologized for the Fourth Crusade...in 2004!

Both sides are HP's. Simple as that.


Israel seems like a pretty obvious good guy to me.
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« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2012, 03:44:01 pm »
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I am opposed to all international law anyway,so it seems a silly point to argue.

Of course, since international law is an inconvenience for the state of Israel.

Israel seems like a pretty obvious good guy to me.

HURR
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« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2012, 03:58:29 pm »
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Israel doesn't have to maintain military parity or superiority; Israel has to maintain enough strength that if it truly looks like Israel will fall, Israel can look at its opponents and say, "We're taking you with us." Israel's present tech will be sufficient for that until Asimov's nuclear force-field defense is invented.

And Israel's Arab states won't catch up to Israel within the foreseeable future -- I want to say 'our lifetimes' but the history can be weird (see: Fourth Crusade) and many of us are very young.

MAD only works if the other side thinks he will take more damage than destroying you is worth.

That said, even if the Arabs continue to think Armageddon is a bad idea, it won't take a nuclear force-field defense to put them in a position to wipe Israel off the map.  With comparable technology to what Israel has and comparable per capita military spending, the Arabs would have sufficient air supremacy over Israel that the Israeli nukes would not be getting through in sufficient numbers to be a deterrent, especially if the Arabs attack first.  The Arabs are not currently capable of that, but the current state of affairs won't last forever, tho I agree that it won't change anytime soon.

I expect Israel will likely last until the 22nd century unless one of its neighbors decides Armageddon is merely an express pass to Heaven.  Reaching the 23rd century is rather more problematic, and the 24th century is unlikely in my opinion.
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« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2012, 04:10:23 pm »
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I am opposed to all international law anyway,so it seems a silly point to argue.

Of course, since international law is an inconvenience for the state of Israel.

I oppose international law on principle, regardless of how it applies to Israel, and the Palestinians certainly have no problem breaking international law anyway.
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« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2012, 04:22:15 pm »
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Israel doesn't have to maintain military parity or superiority; Israel has to maintain enough strength that if it truly looks like Israel will fall, Israel can look at its opponents and say, "We're taking you with us." Israel's present tech will be sufficient for that until Asimov's nuclear force-field defense is invented.

And Israel's Arab states won't catch up to Israel within the foreseeable future -- I want to say 'our lifetimes' but the history can be weird (see: Fourth Crusade) and many of us are very young.

MAD only works if the other side thinks he will take more damage than destroying you is worth.

That said, even if the Arabs continue to think Armageddon is a bad idea, it won't take a nuclear force-field defense to put them in a position to wipe Israel off the map.  With comparable technology to what Israel has and comparable per capita military spending, the Arabs would have sufficient air supremacy over Israel that the Israeli nukes would not be getting through in sufficient numbers to be a deterrent, especially if the Arabs attack first.  The Arabs are not currently capable of that, but the current state of affairs won't last forever, tho I agree that it won't change anytime soon.

I expect Israel will likely last until the 22nd century unless one of its neighbors decides Armageddon is merely an express pass to Heaven.  Reaching the 23rd century is rather more problematic, and the 24th century is unlikely in my opinion.

(The entire next paragraph is written for the very-long term) The problem is that a coalition of Israel's-Arab-enemies that manages to achieve superiority over Israel, they'll make other enemies fast -- and those may be willing to intervene. Certainly, religious conservatives/Jews in America won't stand for a conquest of Israel -- and there aren't really any existential threats to the either group. Israel has lots of powerful friends, pretty much everywhere.

I agree that Israel in its current form may not reach the 23rd/24th century (what government styles really last for centuries? shut up, San Marino!), but it's more likely to be replaced by some kind of Israel-successor-state than by majority-Arab states. The problem of secular Israelis vs. Haredis is also one that is much more significant than many people realize.
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« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2012, 04:28:12 pm »
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Literally both sides are horrible; the Palestinian leaders aren't doing the least bit to start a new dialogue and prevent their people from committing terrorism, but Israel is just as bad. The Israeli government forces many Arabs to carry IDs that Israelis don't need, they build Israeli homes in territory that they themselves promised to the Palestinians, they have created a de facto police state society, and they otherwise act incredibly bigoted towards all Arabs. In fact, from what I understand, some Israelis in positions of power have threatened to wipe the Palestinians off the map. Sound familiar?

Neither side is innocent here, but the Israelis have more power, so they abuse it more, and thus are closest to being the "bad guy" in this situation (though more misguided than cacklingly evil). If it was the country of Palestine and scattered bits of a mini Israel, then I would have exactly the same opinion.
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« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2012, 05:24:04 pm »
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The Israeli government forces many Arabs to carry IDs that Israelis don't need,
What is this referring to?

they build Israeli homes in territory that they themselves promised to the Palestinians,

We did? What is it that we promised?

they have created a de facto police state society,

We have? I live here and this is news to me.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 05:26:19 pm by danny »Logged

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« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2012, 05:43:05 pm »
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I oppose international law on principle, regardless of how it applies to Israel, and the Palestinians certainly have no problem breaking international law anyway.

Of course. As international law shouldn't apply to the superior "chosen ones", does it?
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« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2012, 05:47:37 pm »
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I oppose international law on principle, regardless of how it applies to Israel, and the Palestinians certainly have no problem breaking international law anyway.

Of course. As international law shouldn't apply to the superior "chosen ones", does it?

No, it shouldn't apply to anyone.
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« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2012, 05:52:57 pm »
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(The entire next paragraph is written for the very-long term) The problem is that a coalition of Israel's-Arab-enemies that manages to achieve superiority over Israel, they'll make other enemies fast -- and those may be willing to intervene.

Why should they make those enemies?  Other than the United States, there isn't a single country today that would act to help Israel if the Arabs started to be in a position to push Israel around.  From a realpolitik viewpoint, the only country that might be likely to care would be Iran, and only under a completely different government that what is in control there now.

Quote
Certainly, religious conservatives/Jews in America won't stand for a conquest of Israel -- and there aren't really any existential threats to the either group. Israel has lots of powerful friends, pretty much everywhere.

Friends in the US, but not elsewhere.   Their other relationships are more in the nature of business arrangements, and if the Arabs achieve military parity with Israel, I think those others would be happy enough to deal with the Arabs instead of the Jews.  Nor is it inevitable that the current implicit guarantee the US provides Israel will last,  I doubt we'd tilt pro-Arab, but a return to traditional American isolationism to the point that Israel would be totally on its own in an Arab-Israeli war is quite possible, especially in the timeframe I'm talking about.

Quote
I agree that Israel in its current form may not reach the 23rd/24th century (what government styles really last for centuries? shut up, San Marino!), but it's more likely to be replaced by some kind of Israel-successor-state than by majority-Arab states. The problem of secular Israelis vs. Haredis is also one that is much more significant than many people realize.

If the Haredis take overt control of Israel, I expect that there would be significant emigration of the secular Israelis and a consequent reduction in external support for Israel.  If the Haredis take over, then the final days of the State of Israel will come from war as the region gets to see a replay of Zealots v. Romans, with the Arabs cast in the role of Rome.
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« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2012, 06:33:00 pm »
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The Israeli government forces many Arabs to carry IDs that Israelis don't need,
What is this referring to?

they build Israeli homes in territory that they themselves promised to the Palestinians,

We did? What is it that we promised?

they have created a de facto police state society,

We have? I live here and this is news to me.


Hmmm... well, this isn't the source I found it from, but it seems that Palestinians need to carry ID cards; I didn't know that Israelis themselves had to have their own IDs. Anyway, the point is that they aren't treated as citizens nor as neighbors.

As for the homes, again, this is not where I found it the issue about the Israel homes in Palestinian territory, but here's an example.

As for the "police state" thing, what about that Gaza flotilla raid that happened in 2010? Surely an attack on a flotilla that was trying to get supplies to a blockaded city is something close to authoritarian, right? And if (probably anti-authoritarian by default, since they're teenagers) Israeli teenagers think that Arabs don't deserve equal rights...

I might have chosen too strong of words, and I'm sorry if I'm assuming things (as I have never been to Israel, and I'm neither Israeli or Palestinian) but my point is that neither side is innocent (though Free Palestine goes way too far with the "Israel is evil" meme), neither Israel nor Palestine. Again, I'm not trying to be arrogant and I'm not trying to generalize things. I'm simply saying that neither your country, nor Palestine is innocent in this conflict.

EDIT: Crap, I'm just digging myself into a deeper hole, aren't I? My bad for commenting on this; Israel/Palestine is not one of the issues I think about that much, besides listening to people who either know a lot more or a lot less on the issue than myself.
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« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2012, 07:22:55 pm »
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(The entire next paragraph is written for the very-long term) The problem is that a coalition of Israel's-Arab-enemies that manages to achieve superiority over Israel, they'll make other enemies fast -- and those may be willing to intervene.

Why should they make those enemies?  Other than the United States, there isn't a single country today that would act to help Israel if the Arabs started to be in a position to push Israel around.  From a realpolitik viewpoint, the only country that might be likely to care would be Iran, and only under a completely different government that what is in control there now.

Because lots of groups have ambitions in that area and might not like a significant change to the status quo? From a realpolitik view, it makes sense to support Israel; a very powerful Arab bloc could grow and become a rival to you, the hypothetical great power of the future, but Israel won't because it's all boxed in by opponents, is a convenient block to the Arabs, and is also conveniently strategically located for a puppet state. Let's also keep in mind that 'Arabs' are probably not a unified polity in this distant future, and some regimes may be willing to subtly prop up Israel to keep other regimes from taking over the area.

Quote
Certainly, religious conservatives/Jews in America won't stand for a conquest of Israel -- and there aren't really any existential threats to the either group. Israel has lots of powerful friends, pretty much everywhere.

Friends in the US, but not elsewhere.   Their other relationships are more in the nature of business arrangements, and if the Arabs achieve military parity with Israel, I think those others would be happy enough to deal with the Arabs instead of the Jews.  Nor is it inevitable that the current implicit guarantee the US provides Israel will last,  I doubt we'd tilt pro-Arab, but a return to traditional American isolationism to the point that Israel would be totally on its own in an Arab-Israeli war is quite possible, especially in the timeframe I'm talking about.

Israel has friends around the Western World, not just in the US, and while some of Israel's friends would be just as happy to deal with the Arabs, the question of whether the Arabs would be happy to deal with Israel's former "friends" is also worth asking. (Where Israel's friends will be in the hypothetical future is also up for debate). Also, unless either Jews or religious conservatives stop mattering in American politics, America will continue backing Israel -- both groups have enough influence on their own to guarantee it, and taken together it's a certainty.

Quote
I agree that Israel in its current form may not reach the 23rd/24th century (what government styles really last for centuries? shut up, San Marino!), but it's more likely to be replaced by some kind of Israel-successor-state than by majority-Arab states. The problem of secular Israelis vs. Haredis is also one that is much more significant than many people realize.

If the Haredis take overt control of Israel, I expect that there would be significant emigration of the secular Israelis and a consequent reduction in external support for Israel.  If the Haredis take over, then the final days of the State of Israel will come from war as the region gets to see a replay of Zealots v. Romans, with the Arabs cast in the role of Rome.

I doubt if the Haredis will take over there will be such wide-scale reforms as to force secular Jews out of Israel, but I was merely alluding to societal disruptions, riots, culture wars, '60s-US problems, and the like. I suppose, at a stretch a civil war is possible, but that is rather doubtful -- I don't think the splits are that significant. Again, the Arabs can't be Rome, because it's very doubtful they're unified. The Siege of Troy might be a good example -- even if there are a lot of you, if your opponent is well-armed enough and has supplies coming in you can't stop, he can totally hold out forever. (Jews won't fall for horses, and in fact they probably wouldn't've when the Siege of Troy itself was going on).
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« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2012, 07:24:44 pm »
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(The entire next paragraph is written for the very-long term) The problem is that a coalition of Israel's-Arab-enemies that manages to achieve superiority over Israel, they'll make other enemies fast -- and those may be willing to intervene.

Why should they make those enemies?  Other than the United States, there isn't a single country today that would act to help Israel if the Arabs started to be in a position to push Israel around.  From a realpolitik viewpoint, the only country that might be likely to care would be Iran, and only under a completely different government that what is in control there now.

Because lots of groups have ambitions in that area and might not like a significant change to the status quo? From a realpolitik view, it makes sense to support Israel; a very powerful Arab bloc could grow and become a rival to you, the hypothetical great power of the future, but Israel won't because it's all boxed in by opponents, is a convenient block to the Arabs, and is also conveniently strategically located for a puppet state. Let's also keep in mind that 'Arabs' are probably not a unified polity in this distant future, and some regimes may be willing to subtly prop up Israel to keep other regimes from taking over the area.

Quote
Certainly, religious conservatives/Jews in America won't stand for a conquest of Israel -- and there aren't really any existential threats to the either group. Israel has lots of powerful friends, pretty much everywhere.

Friends in the US, but not elsewhere.   Their other relationships are more in the nature of business arrangements, and if the Arabs achieve military parity with Israel, I think those others would be happy enough to deal with the Arabs instead of the Jews.  Nor is it inevitable that the current implicit guarantee the US provides Israel will last,  I doubt we'd tilt pro-Arab, but a return to traditional American isolationism to the point that Israel would be totally on its own in an Arab-Israeli war is quite possible, especially in the timeframe I'm talking about.

Israel has friends around the Western World, not just in the US, and while some of Israel's friends would be just as happy to deal with the Arabs, the question of whether the Arabs would be happy to deal with Israel's former "friends" is also worth asking. (Where Israel's friends will be in the hypothetical future is also up for debate). Also, unless either Jews or religious conservatives stop mattering in American politics, America will continue backing Israel -- both groups have enough influence on their own to guarantee it, and taken together it's a certainty.

Quote
I agree that Israel in its current form may not reach the 23rd/24th century (what government styles really last for centuries? shut up, San Marino!), but it's more likely to be replaced by some kind of Israel-successor-state than by majority-Arab states. The problem of secular Israelis vs. Haredis is also one that is much more significant than many people realize.

If the Haredis take overt control of Israel, I expect that there would be significant emigration of the secular Israelis and a consequent reduction in external support for Israel.  If the Haredis take over, then the final days of the State of Israel will come from war as the region gets to see a replay of Zealots v. Romans, with the Arabs cast in the role of Rome.

I doubt if the Haredis will take over there will be such wide-scale reforms as to force secular Jews out of Israel, but I was merely alluding to societal disruptions, riots, culture wars, '60s-US problems, and the like. I suppose, at a stretch a civil war is possible, but that is rather doubtful -- I don't think the splits are that significant. Again, the Arabs can't be Rome, because it's very doubtful they're unified. The Siege of Troy might be a good example -- even if there are a lot of you, if your opponent is well-armed enough and has supplies coming in you can't stop, he can totally hold out forever. (Jews won't fall for horses, and in fact they probably wouldn't've when the Siege of Troy itself was going on).

I would write a reply to PioneerProgress, but I think danny can do it more eloquently than me. Suffice it to say that the idea that the Gaza raid was authoritarian is bulls**t, and that polls of Israeli Arabs seem to suggest most of them want to stay in Israel.
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« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2012, 08:01:20 pm »
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A key thing about the Secular vs. Haredi conflict is that there's a big split within the Haredi community as well. The Zionist Haredi wing, led by Moshe Feiglin, is fiercely patriotic, serves in the military, and works within Likud and the other right wing parties to bring religion more into politics. The other Haredi, the more extreme religious ones, are often less interested in politics, don't serve in the military and prefer to devote themselves 100% to Torah study, and some actually oppose Israel's existence on religious grounds.

It's unlikely that the Haredi would be able to unite enough to pose a threat to continued Secular Zionist government.
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« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2012, 10:15:21 pm »
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I oppose international law on principle, regardless of how it applies to Israel, and the Palestinians certainly have no problem breaking international law anyway.

Of course. As international law shouldn't apply to the superior "chosen ones", does it?

No, it shouldn't apply to anyone.

I'm genuinely baffled as to how you can possibly in good conscience believe this.
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« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2012, 10:55:39 pm »
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Also, unless either Jews or religious conservatives stop mattering in American politics, America will continue backing Israel -- both groups have enough influence on their own to guarantee it, and taken together it's a certainty.

Fifty years ago religious conservatives didn't matter much in American politics, so their decline in influence in another fifty to hundred years is very much within the realm of possibility.  There's also the chance that the evangelicals and the Jews end up on the same side of the partisan divide in which case they would have no influence when the other side is in power.  Then there's the outside possibility that in another hundred years, the evangelicals stop being as enamored of Dispensationalism as they are now, in which case their devotion to there being a Jewish state would be less.  Then there's the fact that if the US goes broke, then even if we want to help, we might not be able to.
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« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2012, 03:47:50 am »
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I oppose international law on principle, regardless of how it applies to Israel, and the Palestinians certainly have no problem breaking international law anyway.

Of course. As international law shouldn't apply to the superior "chosen ones", does it?

No, it shouldn't apply to anyone.

I'm genuinely baffled as to how you can possibly in good conscience believe this.

Really? Why so? I'm not saying one can't argue for international law or anything, but it is a bit of a silly concept.
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