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| | |-+  Porcupine Polling: Mideast Election Procedure
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Poll
Question: Which system would you prefer for electing members of the Assembly?
Current System   -4 (22.2%)
5 Permanent Seats   -5 (27.8%)
Undecided   -3 (16.7%)
Don't Care   -1 (5.6%)
Not a Mideast Resident   -5 (27.8%)
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Total Voters: 18

Author Topic: Porcupine Polling: Mideast Election Procedure  (Read 936 times)
tmthforu94
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« on: July 09, 2012, 04:34:35 pm »
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As the Assembly may soon be voting on whether to change the system, I'd like to see what public support is looking like.

Current System:
Quote
2.The Assembly shall be composed of five members in an election where six or more candidates have made an official candidate declaration by the ballot deadline established in Article IV, Section 1., Clause 7. The Assembly shall be composed of three members in an election where five or less candidates have made an official declaration by the ballot deadline established in Article IV, Section 1., Clause 7. Members of the Assembly must be registered voters residing in the Mideast Region.


Proposed System:
Quote
The Assembly shall be composed of five members, each of whom shall be registered voters residing in the Mideast Region.

Poll runs for 5 days. I encourage voters to read through the (expected) debate on this thread before voting. I did allow the option to change your vote.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 04:40:15 pm by Tmthforu94 »Logged

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« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2012, 04:36:38 pm »
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Write-in: Permanent 3 seats
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2012, 04:38:18 pm »
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Here is are some of the arguments being made for changing the system back to 5:

I don't care too much but with three members the Governor is given way too much power

Thanks to ZuWo's efforts of recruiting new Whig members to the Mideast, we have quite a few active members. I believe, instead of letting those members become zombie voters for specific parties, like many of our newbies often become, we should find a way to easily integrate them into the game. If we have 5 great, active candidates, I don't think they should be punished and only 3 of them getting elected.

ZuWo himself stated yesterday to me that these amendments may take a while to pass, as both HW and Inks have been busy and RogueBeaver is just starting off. Imagine how much more active the Assembly would be if JCL had also gotten in the last election.

We must be willing to adapt, and with our new members, we need to find a way for them to learn the game and become involved. That's how I got my start, as well as many other's who have gone on to do great things. Newbies deserve a chance.

My biggest problem with the current version will hopefully never become a problem, but I just don't like the idea of good Assemblymembers being punished because not enough candidate run.

I understand your reasonings. I do think there is potential for uncompetitive elections either way. Also, look at this session - with all due respect, this session, our first in a while with only 3, hasn't been too active. Is possibly having a competitive election worth the potential of having a less active legislative session? I suppose that's up to you three to decide.

In short when it comes to assembly numbers, I think:
-5 members is preferable to 3. That has always been my position from when it changed and I was lonely in opposing it to now when it has become popular again. The main reason is that having more members spurs more activity because having more new people involved in the game means bringing new perspectives into the discussion, new ideas for bills, etc that the same old crew who have been in the assembly for years may have exhausted their supply of. I agree that this is at its heart an election game and potentionally causing non-competitive elections is a potential a downside, but I believe in this case it does more to exclude new members from becoming active than it does to generate interest in the election. I also think that even if it means you have one extra inactive assemblyman, having more people means each inactive assemblyman does less to shipwreck the game.
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« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2012, 05:11:03 pm »
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Undecided.
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Mideast Assemblyman Ben
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« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2012, 07:22:06 pm »
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5 permanent
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« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2012, 08:52:56 pm »
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You could set the maximum size of your Assembly at five, while also requiring a minimum quota of votes to be elected. This might allow you to squeeze competitiveness out of your elections without sacrificing activity in governance.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2012, 09:13:56 pm »
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You could set the maximum size of your Assembly at five, while also requiring a minimum quota of votes to be elected. This might allow you to squeeze competitiveness out of your elections without sacrificing activity in governance.
That's an interesting proposal - setting the size based off votes, not candidates. Itd need to be a percentage though, of course.
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« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 02:37:27 am »
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The current system has turned out to be the best as it guarantees flexibility and competitiveness. We had numerous boring elections with the old system that gave us five seats permanently; since Atlasia is primarily a game centered around elections, this is the last thing we should want. Also, the citizens voted in favor of the current system not too long ago with an overwhelming majority, so there's no reason to change it again.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 02:40:49 am by Mideast Governor ZuWo »Logged
tmthforu94
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« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2012, 09:36:20 am »
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The current system has turned out to be the best as it guarantees flexibility and competitiveness. We had numerous boring elections with the old system that gave us five seats permanently; since Atlasia is primarily a game centered around elections, this is the last thing we should want. Also, the citizens voted in favor of the current system not too long ago with an overwhelming majority, so there's no reason to change it again.
Well, one reason right off the top of my head is that this session hasn't been too active due to time constraints of our Assemblyman. Is having a weekend with a competitive election worth potentially having an entire legislative session that is slow.
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« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2012, 09:38:08 am »
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The number of seats ought to be fixed.
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« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2012, 09:43:31 am »
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The current system has turned out to be the best as it guarantees flexibility and competitiveness. We had numerous boring elections with the old system that gave us five seats permanently; since Atlasia is primarily a game centered around elections, this is the last thing we should want. Also, the citizens voted in favor of the current system not too long ago with an overwhelming majority, so there's no reason to change it again.
Well, one reason right off the top of my head is that this session hasn't been too active due to time constraints of our Assemblyman. Is having a weekend with a competitive election worth potentially having an entire legislative session that is slow.

These time constraints would also have existed if the Assembly had had five members. In fact, this session is more productive than some of the previous sessions where the Assembly had five members. Activity really doesn't hinge on the number of Assemblymembers, which the "Statute" page on the wiki that I've updated recently shows very clearly. History has shown that the argument you are trying to make (i.e. fewer Assemblymembers means less activity) is not accurate.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2012, 09:45:25 am »
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The current system has turned out to be the best as it guarantees flexibility and competitiveness. We had numerous boring elections with the old system that gave us five seats permanently; since Atlasia is primarily a game centered around elections, this is the last thing we should want. Also, the citizens voted in favor of the current system not too long ago with an overwhelming majority, so there's no reason to change it again.
Well, one reason right off the top of my head is that this session hasn't been too active due to time constraints of our Assemblyman. Is having a weekend with a competitive election worth potentially having an entire legislative session that is slow.

These time constraints would also have existed if the Assembly had had five members. In fact, this session is more productive than some of the previous sessions where the Assembly had five members. Activity really doesn't hinge on the number of Assemblymembers, which the "Statute" page on the wiki that I've updated recently shows very clearly. History has shown that the argument you are trying to make (i.e. fewer Assemblymembers means less activity) is not accurate.

Right now, we have so many active members in our region, yet we have a small, 3-man legislature that hasn't accomplished a lot. It seems kind of silly to me - throw JCL, and, say, Oldiesfreak in there, and I guarentee, despite your claim, the Assembly would be more active.
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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2012, 09:50:42 am »
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The current system has turned out to be the best as it guarantees flexibility and competitiveness. We had numerous boring elections with the old system that gave us five seats permanently; since Atlasia is primarily a game centered around elections, this is the last thing we should want. Also, the citizens voted in favor of the current system not too long ago with an overwhelming majority, so there's no reason to change it again.
Well, one reason right off the top of my head is that this session hasn't been too active due to time constraints of our Assemblyman. Is having a weekend with a competitive election worth potentially having an entire legislative session that is slow.

These time constraints would also have existed if the Assembly had had five members. In fact, this session is more productive than some of the previous sessions where the Assembly had five members. Activity really doesn't hinge on the number of Assemblymembers, which the "Statute" page on the wiki that I've updated recently shows very clearly. History has shown that the argument you are trying to make (i.e. fewer Assemblymembers means less activity) is not accurate.

Right now, we have so many active members in our region, yet we have a small, 3-man legislature that hasn't accomplished a lot. It seems kind of silly to me - throw JCL, and, say, Oldiesfreak in there, and I guarentee, despite your claim, the Assembly would be more active.

You know that the next Assembly will have five members thanks to the current system, don't you?

If the old system (five members no matter how many candidates we have) had been in place, our Assembly would currently consist of 4 members and one vacancy because only 4 candidates wanted to run for a seat in May. That would have been an awfully boring election!
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2012, 10:54:24 am »
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The current system has turned out to be the best as it guarantees flexibility and competitiveness. We had numerous boring elections with the old system that gave us five seats permanently; since Atlasia is primarily a game centered around elections, this is the last thing we should want. Also, the citizens voted in favor of the current system not too long ago with an overwhelming majority, so there's no reason to change it again.
Well, one reason right off the top of my head is that this session hasn't been too active due to time constraints of our Assemblyman. Is having a weekend with a competitive election worth potentially having an entire legislative session that is slow.

These time constraints would also have existed if the Assembly had had five members. In fact, this session is more productive than some of the previous sessions where the Assembly had five members. Activity really doesn't hinge on the number of Assemblymembers, which the "Statute" page on the wiki that I've updated recently shows very clearly. History has shown that the argument you are trying to make (i.e. fewer Assemblymembers means less activity) is not accurate.

Right now, we have so many active members in our region, yet we have a small, 3-man legislature that hasn't accomplished a lot. It seems kind of silly to me - throw JCL, and, say, Oldiesfreak in there, and I guarentee, despite your claim, the Assembly would be more active.

You know that the next Assembly will have five members thanks to the current system, don't you?

If the old system (five members no matter how many candidates we have) had been in place, our Assembly would currently consist of 4 members and one vacancy because only 4 candidates wanted to run for a seat in May. That would have been an awfully boring election!
I don't need a reminder on how the current system is, I think I know quite well. And so what? The Assembly would have been 5 regardless of which method. We're talking about the current session.

I guess that's what voters will have to decide - if having a competitive Assembly election is worth potentially having a slow legislative session.
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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2012, 12:00:46 pm »
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My idea is that the voters should be able to vote between 3 or 5 seats each election.
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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2012, 08:36:52 pm »
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I'm leaning toward 5 seats, this coming from an original proponent of moving to 3 seats. If the activity remains at this level, then I would love to see an active 5 person assembly each session.
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Lt. Governor TJ
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« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2012, 08:37:47 pm »
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Maybe all we need to do to keep activity up is endlessly debate how many seats there should be Tongue

And I voted 5 Permanent.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2012, 09:52:56 pm »
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Maybe all we need to do to keep activity up is endlessly debate how many seats there should be Tongue

And I voted 5 Permanent.
I'd like to think I'm doing a service to the region by bringing this up again. Tongue

I'd also like to bring up - is it right to have 3 people (2 Assemblymen and the Governor) being able to completely control our regional government, especially considering our size and activity?
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« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2012, 10:46:16 pm »
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I'm leaning toward 5 seats, this coming from an original proponent of moving to 3 seats. If the activity remains at this level, then I would love to see an active 5 person assembly each session.

If the activity remains at this level, there WOULD be an active 5 person assembly each session.
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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2012, 06:22:50 am »
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Maybe all we need to do to keep activity up is endlessly debate how many seats there should be Tongue

And I voted 5 Permanent.
I'd like to think I'm doing a service to the region by bringing this up again. Tongue

I'd also like to bring up - is it right to have 3 people (2 Assemblymen and the Governor) being able to completely control our regional government, especially considering our size and activity?

You should also look at the other side of the coin; an Assembly with only three members actually weakens the Governor's powers because it makes it a lot easier for the Assembly to get a bill passed against the will of the Governor - only two Assemblymembers need to support a bill and can easily override the veto of the Governor.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2012, 09:11:34 am »
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Maybe all we need to do to keep activity up is endlessly debate how many seats there should be Tongue

And I voted 5 Permanent.
I'd like to think I'm doing a service to the region by bringing this up again. Tongue

I'd also like to bring up - is it right to have 3 people (2 Assemblymen and the Governor) being able to completely control our regional government, especially considering our size and activity?

You should also look at the other side of the coin; an Assembly with only three members actually weakens the Governor's powers because it makes it a lot easier for the Assembly to get a bill passed against the will of the Governor - only two Assemblymembers need to support a bill and can easily override the veto of the Governor.
I wasn't even talking about the Governor's power, just the government in general, but thank you for furthering my point, as I forgot about veto overrides. Only 2 people can potentiall run our government, and it's also pointless to require the same amount for an override as regular passage. It used to be unanimous, I believe, with 3 members.

With everyone voting, a 5-man Assembly requires that at least 4 people support a bill for it to pass, not just 2. Take a look at this very own amendment being voted on - 2 people get to decide whether the people get to vote on it.
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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2012, 09:53:32 am »
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3/5 isn't a majority?
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2012, 09:56:57 am »
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3/5 isn't a majority?
Hm? 3 Assemblymen, 1 Governor. 4. Or 4 Assemblymen to override a veto.
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« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2012, 11:56:46 pm »
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Since raising the Assembly isn't an issue right now, why not wait until we have less than 6 candidates before we bring up this issue.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2012, 12:01:55 am »
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Since raising the Assembly isn't an issue right now, why not wait until we have less than 6 candidates before we bring up this issue.
Because it's better to fix a potential problem now rather than wait until tha problem actually occurs. If we wait until an election with, say, 5 candidates, we probably couldn't get an amendment passed before the election.
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