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Author Topic: don't you wish Jesus were real?  (Read 3417 times)
© tweed
Miamiu1027
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« on: July 09, 2012, 11:11:46 pm »
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such a shame that He isn't.  such a beautiful idea!  I had this inkling, driving home on the barren public-sector Long Island highways, to drive to my father's house, and it would have been on the way, and I haven't spoken to him bar 3 texts in 3 weeks, and tell him: "I forgive you, Dad.  and I pray that you can forgive me."  but I double-took, and realized, I didn't mean it!  I don't forgive him!  he is a spiteful, narcissistic, limited, angry man, and I don't forgive him!  how I wish I did. how I wish there were Christ, but there's no Christ without deliverance from sin, there's no deliverance from sin without literal Genesis, and literal Genesis absolutely never happened.  so there's no Christ.  so I do not forgive my father.  and I sit, in a barren, empty room.
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2012, 12:13:12 am »
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No, because he is real.
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2012, 02:55:59 am »
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He was probably a real figure; but he wasn't what he claimed he was. So nothing to miss really.
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« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2012, 04:03:28 am »
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He was probably a real figure; but he wasn't what he claimed he was. So nothing to miss really.

Much of what we apparently 'know' about him isn't even what he claimed himself, but rather on his behalf by hagiographers over the centuries.
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« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2012, 04:05:47 am »
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Jesus was just some random guy who died almost 2000 years ago.
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« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2012, 05:17:14 am »
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He was probably a real figure; but he wasn't what he claimed he was. So nothing to miss really.

Much of what we apparently 'know' about him isn't even what he claimed himself, but rather on his behalf by hagiographers over the centuries.

True. There were no doubt dozens of semi-literate prophets and messiahs roaming Judea. We just happen to know either about one, or an amalgamation of others into one.
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« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2012, 09:20:03 am »
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No, because he is real.
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« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 09:32:40 am »
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As mentioned, the biblical Jesus probably was based on a real person. However, it would be absolutely horrible if the biblical description were accurate - the notion of condemning people to eternal torment for not worshiping him is revolting, and would be worse than anything us humans have ever done.
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« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2012, 10:20:12 am »
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I can only imagine what logged-out-jmfcst is writing to himself after reading this thread.
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« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2012, 11:00:10 am »
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I don't feel any particular need to 'wish' for pancakes or Suspiria de Profundis to be real, so no. I'm certainly glad about it though.
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« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2012, 12:53:57 pm »
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No, although I see where you"re coming from, I second Dibble - I'm very glad that Jesus as described in the Bible wasn't real (disclaimer: IMO), since the ramifications of not worshipping him are so awful.
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« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2012, 03:18:17 pm »
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He WAS real!!!  There are numerous independent historical sources that confirm this.  Of course He was real!
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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2012, 03:56:30 pm »
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He was real, and there is evidence that he existed. He was what he said he was-he was the Son of God. But, the Christian religion is based on faith-thats the keyword-faith. We have faith that he existed and was the Son of God. And that faith will be rewarded by him.

As mentioned, the biblical Jesus probably was based on a real person. However, it would be absolutely horrible if the biblical description were accurate - the notion of condemning people to eternal torment for not worshiping him is revolting, and would be worse than anything us humans have ever done.
I really don't "worship him". I love him, and thats how it should be. I don't bow down to him and praise him for sh**ts and giggles. I do it out of love. I love him because he committed the ultimate sacriface for our sins. No matter how hard I try, I will never pay back the debt I owe to him-my afterlife. And to pay this debt off, I try to love my brothers on Earth, and preach the Gospel.

Jesus is made out to be "LETZ KILL TEH GAYZ". But, all in all, Jesus was a God of love, not hate.
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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2012, 04:14:04 pm »
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As mentioned, the biblical Jesus probably was based on a real person. However, it would be absolutely horrible if the biblical description were accurate - the notion of condemning people to eternal torment for not worshiping him is revolting, and would be worse than anything us humans have ever done.

I really don't "worship him". I love him, and thats how it should be. I don't bow down to him and praise him for sh**ts and giggles. I do it out of love. I love him because he committed the ultimate sacriface for our sins. No matter how hard I try, I will never pay back the debt I owe to him-my afterlife. And to pay this debt off, I try to love my brothers on Earth, and preach the Gospel.

Jesus is made out to be "LETZ KILL TEH GAYZ". But, all in all, Jesus was a God of love, not hate.

Who said anything about gay people? I was talking about Hell - you know, that place that God sends the nonbelievers to suffer in torment and agony for all eternity. That's not exactly an act of love.
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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2012, 05:37:45 pm »
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As mentioned, the biblical Jesus probably was based on a real person. However, it would be absolutely horrible if the biblical description were accurate - the notion of condemning people to eternal torment for not worshiping him is revolting, and would be worse than anything us humans have ever done.

I really don't "worship him". I love him, and thats how it should be. I don't bow down to him and praise him for sh**ts and giggles. I do it out of love. I love him because he committed the ultimate sacriface for our sins. No matter how hard I try, I will never pay back the debt I owe to him-my afterlife. And to pay this debt off, I try to love my brothers on Earth, and preach the Gospel.

Jesus is made out to be "LETZ KILL TEH GAYZ". But, all in all, Jesus was a God of love, not hate.

Who said anything about gay people? I was talking about Hell - you know, that place that God sends the nonbelievers to suffer in torment and agony for all eternity. That's not exactly an act of love.

Might I suggest that you're reading the Little Apocalypse of Matthew and similar passages in a way that's culturally conditioned to comport with certain specifics of theology that lack universality, antiquity, and consensus?

Rereading the OP I'm not sure why Tweed thinks that literal Genesis is necessary for the remission of sin, since Original Sin doesn't require a specific originary event in order to make sense.
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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2012, 05:44:18 pm »
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As mentioned, the biblical Jesus probably was based on a real person. However, it would be absolutely horrible if the biblical description were accurate - the notion of condemning people to eternal torment for not worshiping him is revolting, and would be worse than anything us humans have ever done.

I really don't "worship him". I love him, and thats how it should be. I don't bow down to him and praise him for sh**ts and giggles. I do it out of love. I love him because he committed the ultimate sacriface for our sins. No matter how hard I try, I will never pay back the debt I owe to him-my afterlife. And to pay this debt off, I try to love my brothers on Earth, and preach the Gospel.

Jesus is made out to be "LETZ KILL TEH GAYZ". But, all in all, Jesus was a God of love, not hate.

Who said anything about gay people? I was talking about Hell - you know, that place that God sends the nonbelievers to suffer in torment and agony for all eternity. That's not exactly an act of love.
I didn't reference an attack on gays by anyone, and the post was not in a negative context. I did not mean to sound negative or attacking, because that was the opposite of my point. Megachurches often have the radical, hatefull, un Christian ministers who give Jesus a bad name.

My point was, its easy to avoid hell. Everyone has Jesus in them-you just have to find him. I hope someday you will, because once I found him, my life became a lot better Smiley

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« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2012, 06:52:11 pm »
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As mentioned, the biblical Jesus probably was based on a real person. However, it would be absolutely horrible if the biblical description were accurate - the notion of condemning people to eternal torment for not worshiping him is revolting, and would be worse than anything us humans have ever done.

I really don't "worship him". I love him, and thats how it should be. I don't bow down to him and praise him for sh**ts and giggles. I do it out of love. I love him because he committed the ultimate sacriface for our sins. No matter how hard I try, I will never pay back the debt I owe to him-my afterlife. And to pay this debt off, I try to love my brothers on Earth, and preach the Gospel.

Jesus is made out to be "LETZ KILL TEH GAYZ". But, all in all, Jesus was a God of love, not hate.

Who said anything about gay people? I was talking about Hell - you know, that place that God sends the nonbelievers to suffer in torment and agony for all eternity. That's not exactly an act of love.
I didn't reference an attack on gays by anyone, and the post was not in a negative context. I did not mean to sound negative or attacking, because that was the opposite of my point. Megachurches often have the radical, hatefull, un Christian ministers who give Jesus a bad name.

My point was, its easy to avoid hell. Everyone has Jesus in them-you just have to find him. I hope someday you will, because once I found him, my life became a lot better Smiley

You're missing the point entirely - a loving being wouldn't create Hell in the first place.
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© tweed
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« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2012, 06:58:14 pm »
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Rereading the OP I'm not sure why Tweed thinks that literal Genesis is necessary for the remission of sin, since Original Sin doesn't require a specific originary event in order to make sense.

I don't really agree here -- it certainly can 'make sense', but the Biblical doctrine can't hold together as one, and descends into the realm of mere suggestion.
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« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2012, 08:46:41 pm »
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As mentioned, the biblical Jesus probably was based on a real person. However, it would be absolutely horrible if the biblical description were accurate - the notion of condemning people to eternal torment for not worshiping him is revolting, and would be worse than anything us humans have ever done.

I really don't "worship him". I love him, and thats how it should be. I don't bow down to him and praise him for sh**ts and giggles. I do it out of love. I love him because he committed the ultimate sacriface for our sins. No matter how hard I try, I will never pay back the debt I owe to him-my afterlife. And to pay this debt off, I try to love my brothers on Earth, and preach the Gospel.

Jesus is made out to be "LETZ KILL TEH GAYZ". But, all in all, Jesus was a God of love, not hate.
Who said anything about gay people? I was talking about Hell - you know, that place that God sends the nonbelievers to suffer in torment and agony for all eternity. That's not exactly an act of love.
Yes it is-- he's honoring the choice of unbelievers not to believe in Him.
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« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2012, 08:49:48 pm »
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Rereading the OP I'm not sure why Tweed thinks that literal Genesis is necessary for the remission of sin, since Original Sin doesn't require a specific originary event in order to make sense.

I don't really agree here -- it certainly can 'make sense', but the Biblical doctrine can't hold together as one, and descends into the realm of mere suggestion.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'mere suggestion', except in the sense that all religion is suggestion because it can't and when it's being honest doesn't try to give empirical proof to many of its claims. There's also not honestly that much in the way of 'Biblical doctrine'. Doctrine is commentary on the significance of the Biblical narrative, which has always been applied through the social lens.
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« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2012, 09:42:46 pm »
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As mentioned, the biblical Jesus probably was based on a real person. However, it would be absolutely horrible if the biblical description were accurate - the notion of condemning people to eternal torment for not worshiping him is revolting, and would be worse than anything us humans have ever done.

I really don't "worship him". I love him, and thats how it should be. I don't bow down to him and praise him for sh**ts and giggles. I do it out of love. I love him because he committed the ultimate sacriface for our sins. No matter how hard I try, I will never pay back the debt I owe to him-my afterlife. And to pay this debt off, I try to love my brothers on Earth, and preach the Gospel.

Jesus is made out to be "LETZ KILL TEH GAYZ". But, all in all, Jesus was a God of love, not hate.
Who said anything about gay people? I was talking about Hell - you know, that place that God sends the nonbelievers to suffer in torment and agony for all eternity. That's not exactly an act of love.

Yes it is-- he's honoring the choice of unbelievers not to believe in Him.

So when the North Korean leadership throws dissenters into a labor camp to work them to death, is that also a loving act? Clearly the leadership is honoring their choice to dissent, right?
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« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2012, 10:59:54 pm »
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So basically Tweed wants to be a Christian but thinks the entire doctrine falls apart if the story of The Fall in Genesis is not literal, and can't accept it so he can't be a Christian. That's how I'm reading this thread.
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« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2012, 11:21:16 pm »
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No, and I'll have to go with a point my old friend Christopher Hitchens made many times. 

If Jesus the son of God were real, then that would mean that for the entirety of human existence before he appeared about 2,000 years ago, God watched upon endless suffering of early humanity in life and the afterlife (if I'm correct, Jesus preached no salvation without him) with complete indifference.  Then, he decides that the best way to reveal the path to salvation is to brutally sacrifice his son in the desert in front of illiterate, uneducated peasants, far away from the more advanced human societies of the time in the far East. 

It's ridiculous and awful in my opinion. 
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« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2012, 12:19:58 am »
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If I knew Tweed in real life, I wonder if I'd be on the verge of converting him.
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« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2012, 12:36:04 am »
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No, and I'll have to go with a point my old friend Christopher Hitchens made many times. 

If Jesus the son of God were real, then that would mean that for the entirety of human existence before he appeared about 2,000 years ago, God watched upon endless suffering of early humanity in life and the afterlife (if I'm correct, Jesus preached no salvation without him) with complete indifference.  Then, he decides that the best way to reveal the path to salvation is to brutally sacrifice his son in the desert in front of illiterate, uneducated peasants, far away from the more advanced human societies of the time in the far East. 

It's ridiculous and awful in my opinion. 

What's ridiculous and awful is Christopher Hitchens's understanding of doctrine, and, for that matter, narratology. (Also history. The Jews weren't illiterate or uneducated, not that it would have been an insurmountable problem if they were.)
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A shameless agrarian collectivist with no respect for private property or individual rights.

His idea of freedom is - it is a bad thing and should be stopped at all costs.

Nathan-land.  As much fun as watching paint dry... literally.
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