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Author Topic: German government speaks out in favor of circumcision  (Read 1463 times)
ZuWo
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« on: July 14, 2012, 04:01:20 am »
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18833145

Merkel's spokesman said: "Circumcision carried out in a responsible manner must be possible without punishment."

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This is a sensible response by the government because let's face it: If circumcisions are banned it will become nearly impossible for Jews and Muslims to practise their religion in a legal way. Central aspects of Judaism and Islam are criminalized if this ban should go into effect. And frankly, that's not what we, in Europe, should try to achieve.
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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2012, 04:03:52 am »
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Banning circumcision seems like a pretty simple anti-foreigner measure.
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ZuWo
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2012, 04:13:57 am »
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Banning circumcision seems like a pretty simple anti-foreigner measure.

I don't think this is what the judges at the court in Cologne had in mind when they made that ruling, though. They probably made that ruling in good faith but they lacked any kind of historical and religious sensitivity.
Yes, a circumcision is a (usually very minor) infringement on a boy's physical integrity, but since the effects of a ban of this practice are much worse and far-reaching than the "damage" of a circumcision these judges should never have ruled circumcisions illegal.
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Lewis Trondheim
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2012, 07:26:37 am »
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Banning circumcision seems like a pretty simple anti-foreigner measure.

I don't think this is what the judges at the court in Cologne had in mind when they made that ruling, though. They probably made that ruling in good faith but they lacked any kind of historical and religious sensitivity.
I am not certain of it but it's certainly possible. It's a line of research journos shy away from, obviously.

That the government now agrees with the position the Greens took the day after the verdict is due to Jewish, not Muslim, pressure, of course.
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« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2012, 11:58:22 am »
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Didn't the court rule against infant circumcision, and not circumcision itself?
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2012, 12:17:10 pm »
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Austrians are basically split on the issue of circumcision:

46% want to ban it
40% want to keep it legal
14% are undecided

http://www.profil.at/articles/1228/560/334652/profil-umfrage-knapp-haelfte-oesterreicher-beschneidungsverbot

That means Austrians are about 10% less likely to ban circumcision than Germans, where a Emnid poll showed 56% want to ban it.

This seems to be one of those issues where Austrians are "more liberal" than their German neighbours ... Wink
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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2012, 01:40:10 pm »
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Didn't the court rule against infant circumcision, and not circumcision itself?

Irrelevant.  It's still a significant infringement on religious freedom, and cannot be tolerated.
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« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2012, 02:16:02 pm »

Didn't the court rule against infant circumcision, and not circumcision itself?

Irrelevant.  It's still a significant infringement on religious freedom, and cannot be tolerated.

Is that more important than genital mutilation?
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« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2012, 02:21:18 pm »
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Didn't the court rule against infant circumcision, and not circumcision itself?

Irrelevant.  It's still a significant infringement on religious freedom, and cannot be tolerated.

Is that more important than genital mutilation?

Infant circumcision and female genital mutilation are not the same thing. There is no significant impact to your life for the former.
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« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2012, 02:23:24 pm »

Didn't the court rule against infant circumcision, and not circumcision itself?

Irrelevant.  It's still a significant infringement on religious freedom, and cannot be tolerated.

Is that more important than genital mutilation?

Describing male circumcision as genital mutilation is vaguely insulting to people whose genitals have actually been mutilated in a meaningful way. If anything, adult male circumcision (or even mid-to-late childhood) is a lot worse than infant.

So having the foreskin of an infant removed at the wishes of a parent is not meaningful mutilation? The British Medical Association has declared that it carries 'medical and psychological risks.' Should we just ignore that opinion?

You are supposed to have a foreskin. It's there to serve a purpose. Just because some think their god wants it shorn off doesn't mean we should tolerate it if the state and medical professionals oppose it.
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Lewis Trondheim
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« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2012, 03:04:38 pm »
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So what is that purpose it's supposed to serve?



The court ruled against circumcision of children. Indeed, in the original case the child was four years old - not an infant.
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« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2012, 03:29:09 pm »
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Didn't the court rule against infant circumcision, and not circumcision itself?

Irrelevant.  It's still a significant infringement on religious freedom, and cannot be tolerated.

Is that more important than genital mutilation?

Describing male circumcision as genital mutilation is vaguely insulting to people whose genitals have actually been mutilated in a meaningful way. If anything, adult male circumcision (or even mid-to-late childhood) is a lot worse than infant.

So having the foreskin of an infant removed at the wishes of a parent is not meaningful mutilation? The British Medical Association has declared that it carries 'medical and psychological risks.' Should we just ignore that opinion?

You are supposed to have a foreskin. It's there to serve a purpose. Just because some think their god wants it shorn off doesn't mean we should tolerate it if the state and medical professionals oppose it.

The German state doesn't oppose it - Chancellor Merkel said so. Some court in Cologne opposes it.
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« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2012, 05:58:43 pm »
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Banning circumcision seems like a pretty simple anti-foreigner measure.

I don't think this is what the judges at the court in Cologne had in mind when they made that ruling, though. They probably made that ruling in good faith but they lacked any kind of historical and religious sensitivity.
Yes, a circumcision is a (usually very minor) infringement on a boy's physical integrity, but since the effects of a ban of this practice are much worse and far-reaching than the "damage" of a circumcision these judges should never have ruled circumcisions illegal.

They intentions doesn't matter. This ruling is not only retarded, it's offensive. I'm offended by it's stupidity, although I don't live in Germany and I'm neither a Muslim or Jew.
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« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2012, 06:02:52 pm »
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I know a lot of people who are actually in favour of the Cologne ruling. In the non-antisemitic/islamophobic cases it mostly seems the be the result of a general "meh, religions are stupid anyway" attitude.
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« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2012, 06:06:34 pm »
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For me it's my belief in youth rights -- that the only person who should make the decision as to whether or not to chop one's foreskin off (except in the case of absolute medical necessity), should be the individual who's foreskin is going to be chopped off, when the individual is at least somewhat able to give some kind of consent on the matter.  I don't think you have a "religious freedom" to make permanent, unchangeable decisions about another person, whether it be cutting a foreskin off or not allowing a diabetic child to take insulin.

But of course I'm just a silly suburban anarchist dohoho.
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« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2012, 06:52:03 pm »
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But of course I'm just a silly suburban anarchist dohoho.

Indeed you are, indeed you are.
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« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2012, 05:08:45 am »
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But of course I'm just a silly suburban anarchist dohoho.

Indeed you are, indeed you are.

And you're a drab, arrogant douchebag.

I'm certainly not drab, doll.
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« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2012, 06:50:46 am »
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There is no significant impact to your life for the former.

How on earth do you have the temerity to make this determination, LM?  An awful lot of people find that their lives have been negatively impacted by this.  I for one often worry that I'm missing out on the Real Feel.
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Lewis Trondheim
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« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2012, 07:04:46 am »
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The slight is quite likely (though not certain) to be entirely imaginary.

If you have a mental health problem that you need to blame your parents' silly medical decisions for, and a lot of money to spend, there are crook quacks in America that specialize in foreskin reconstruction.
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« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2012, 01:47:47 pm »
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But of course I'm just a silly suburban anarchist dohoho.

Indeed you are, indeed you are.

And you're a drab, arrogant douchebag.

I'm certainly not drab, doll.

Well, you certainly do nothing but spread dullness and negativity.  Reading your posts is like watching some sad black-and-white hipster short film.
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« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2012, 02:09:49 pm »
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What's next... folks won't name their kids since the kids have a right to choose when they're old enough?
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London Man
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« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2012, 02:10:53 pm »
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But of course I'm just a silly suburban anarchist dohoho.

Indeed you are, indeed you are.

And you're a drab, arrogant douchebag.

I'm certainly not drab, doll.

Well, you certainly do nothing but spread dullness and negativity.  Reading your posts is like watching some sad black-and-white hipster short film.

You are completely wrong in your last. Al has provided very many useful insights on this forum.
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« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2012, 02:54:24 pm »
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What's next... folks won't name their kids since the kids have a right to choose when they're old enough?

No.  But perhaps the whole notion we have of names should change, so that it's more acceptable for people to just change their name later on, with the name at birth being more like a parental "nickname" or something.  Sort of like Burmese names.

Anyways, it's a terrible comparison, because you can change your name, but you can't get your foreskin back.
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« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2012, 03:41:50 pm »
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I feel a lot more connected to and associated with my name than I do with any aspect of my penis, but I might be unusual in that, I honestly would not know.
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« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2012, 08:31:11 am »
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What's next... folks won't name their kids since the kids have a right to choose when they're old enough?
Given that this is a thread involving Bobby... you stepped right in it. Smiley
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