SENATE BILL: The Vice Presidential Reform Amendment of 2012 (Failed)

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Basically, the purpose of this amendment is to actually give the Vice President a job to do.  The position of VP is a job that few desire to have, and that's because the VP is only needed to break ties in the Senate or substitute for the PPT when one is not available.  This amendment reforms the position so that the person holding it may have a more significant and active role in the game.

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As a former President and Vice President who has always been an advocate of game reform, this amendment has my support.

Just to make sure - will there need to be a policy put in place for breaking ties if this passes? Would it just swing with whichever way the VP voted?

Ideally, there shouldn't be any ties because the Senate would have eleven members.  But I see your point that ties can still happen, especially since we have senators that don't vote for nearly every piece of legislation that comes up.

In the Northeast, bills that tie in the Assembly and supported by the Governor are passed onto the citizens to decide on via a referendum, or die if the Governor decides to veto them.  Perhaps this is a policy we can consider for the federal government?

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Either that or the Senator(s) who didn't vote could be treated as if they abstained in the event of a tie. Ya? Doesn't the language of our regulations otherwise make it impossible for a tie to indefinitely stall progress in processing legislation? Depending on the exact wording, we might not require any tie-breaking method.

But if a vote comes down to, say, four in favor, four opposed, and three abstentions, then a tie exists.  Then it becomes a problem.

To correct this, I am amending the legislation:

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Yes, this was pretty much directly taken from the Northeast Constitution.

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The title wording was a mistake.  Sorry about that.

Amendment:

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Sorry, but I oppose this measure.

Right now, we do have mechanism to ensure that the Vice President is an active part of the cabinet and, in general words, the executive power. Considering that the Vice President can become President at any moment, he should be more attached to the executive, rather than legislative.

Beside, we don't need 11th Senator.

Unlike most vice presidents, you've been given two positions in the cabinet, so you already have a more active role.  Most VPs (like Tmthforu) were not able to do very much with their power.  I see no harm that might come out of giving the VP legislative power so that the office carries more than just a title and a small chance of ascending to the presidency.

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The title wording was a mistake.  Sorry about that.

Amendment:

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Sorry, but I oppose this measure.

Right now, we do have mechanism to ensure that the Vice President is an active part of the cabinet and, in general words, the executive power. Considering that the Vice President can become President at any moment, he should be more attached to the executive, rather than legislative.

Beside, we don't need 11th Senator.

Unlike most vice presidents, you've been given two positions in the cabinet, so you already have a more active role.  Most VPs (like Tmthforu) were not able to do very much with their power.  I see no harm that might come out of giving the VP legislative power so that the office carries more than just a title and a small chance of ascending to the presidency.

Tmthforu could've be given a Cabinet position.

That still makes the VP position itself someone pointless.  I'm not really comfortable with the idea of giving people multiple cabinet positions unless there's one that no wants.

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Keep in mind that the VP determines his own involvement with regards to running the Senate. The Constitution provides that the VP do the job and the PPT's power is entirely derived and delegated from the VP.

The problem isn't as much about ability, as it is willingness to engage and communicate with the PPT to stay involved. Kalwejt typically does more than most VP's, atleast judging by his past times holding that position.

Well, personally, I would say that Tmth was very active in his job as VP last time, but his role was still very limited in Senate affairs and the PPT usually has complete autonomy in running the Senate.  Designating the full powers of a Senator to the VP only adds another person to the legislative process and makes the position itself more important to the game.

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I apologize for my lack of activity of late while I was traveling...

Anyway, as for the issue of breaking ties in the Senate if this should pass, Article I specifies that legislation is passed by majority vote:

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I would argue that a tie is not a majority, thus a tied vote would result in the legislation being rejected.

Oh, I didn't realize that.  Would it be much of a problem if we put tied legislation on ballot referendums, though?

Keep in mind that the VP determines his own involvement with regards to running the Senate. The Constitution provides that the VP do the job and the PPT's power is entirely derived and delegated from the VP.

The problem isn't as much about ability, as it is willingness to engage and communicate with the PPT to stay involved. Kalwejt typically does more than most VP's, atleast judging by his past times holding that position.

Well, personally, I would say that Tmth was very active in his job as VP last time, but his role was still very limited in Senate affairs and the PPT usually has complete autonomy in running the Senate.  Designating the full powers of a Senator to the VP only adds another person to the legislative process and makes the position itself more important to the game.

No one can deny Tmthforu's superb performance in office, while my first term as Vice President was hardly an example.

Personally, I'd prefer to eliminate Senate Presidency for Vice President and removing "pro tempore" from PPT's title. I'm not wild about mixing executive branch with legislative and, at least now, Vice President is actually an active part of the cabinet. I think making it permanent would be better reform than giving the Vice President a vote in the Senate.

I don't see how much of a difference that would make, since the VP doesn't have much power in the Senate other than opening PPT votes and breaking ties, from my experience here.  Why do you want to remove the title from the PPT?

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Keep in mind that the VP determines his own involvement with regards to running the Senate. The Constitution provides that the VP do the job and the PPT's power is entirely derived and delegated from the VP.

The problem isn't as much about ability, as it is willingness to engage and communicate with the PPT to stay involved. Kalwejt typically does more than most VP's, atleast judging by his past times holding that position.

Well, personally, I would say that Tmth was very active in his job as VP last time, but his role was still very limited in Senate affairs and the PPT usually has complete autonomy in running the Senate.  Designating the full powers of a Senator to the VP only adds another person to the legislative process and makes the position itself more important to the game.

Whether or not the PPT has complete autonomy is a decision that the VP makes himself. As I said, the VP could render the PPT a total spectator if he wanted to do so. All of the PPT's power is delegated from that of the VP. Which reminds me, Kalwejt has yet to post a public delegation of authority to me.

When has the VP ever taken control of the Senate himself, though?  At this point, it's seem to have become tradition to delegate all the authority to the PPT, and it would just be logical to make that normal routine.

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I think we can move to a final vote.  If this fails, I still think we should work to reform the VP position.

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Aye.

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This amendment would boost legislative direct democracy, because it allows the People to have the say on tied votes.