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| |-+  International General Discussion (Moderators: Peter, afleitch)
| | |-+  Britain Debating Leaving the European Union
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Poll
Question: If a referendum were held today on whether Britain should remain in the European Union, how would you vote?
Briton: Stay   -5 (13.5%)
Briton: Leave   -3 (8.1%)
Non-Briton: Stay   -10 (27%)
Non-Briton: Leave   -19 (51.4%)
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Total Voters: 37

Author Topic: Britain Debating Leaving the European Union  (Read 765 times)
Frodo
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« on: July 15, 2012, 11:38:13 am »
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Opinion in Britain itself is already more or less evenly split between the unionists and the secessionists, so it's an open question whether Britain departs or stays in the EU:

Britains continental drift away from the European Union
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 03:07:24 am by afleitch »Logged

Supersonic
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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2012, 12:46:18 pm »
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I'm very much split on this. While I would like to see greater repatriation of powers from the EU to national governments, specifically the UK's, I do worry about our future outside of the European Union. There is often a 'little Englander' attitude that UKIP often portrays, saying that the Commonwealth and our old Empire will replace Europe as our trading partners. However, in the 21st century, the very idea that Canada, Australia, South Africa etc will solely keep our economy afloat due to 'cultural links' I feel is somewhat nostalgic. At the end of the day, the best I think we can hope for is an EFTA style scenario where we are 'out' of the EU but remain in the single market, although I'm not sure Germany and France would be willing to accept this.

The secessionists have reason for encouragement though, as Labour and increasingly more-so, left wing voters turn against the EU due to the perception of it 'forcing austerity' on countries a-la, Greece, Italy, Spain etc. Of course, socialists and 'old Labour' supporters were anti-European anyway.
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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2012, 01:10:30 pm »
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Option one.
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London Man
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2012, 02:12:10 pm »
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The powers that the Tories want back are employment law - so they can force people to work 60 hours a week.
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« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2012, 02:28:38 pm »
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I'm not educated here...how would this affect the EU much considering Britain doesn't use the Euro?
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ChairmanSanchez
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« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2012, 02:29:48 pm »
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Non Briton-Leave
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« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2012, 04:13:50 pm »
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Non Briton-Leave
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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2012, 02:12:18 am »
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Could this ironically help the EU? There was that recent vote on banks that the UK was the only one of the 27 against, but had to be unanimous. Many in the rest of the EU are interested in a stronger federal government, but obviously the UK isn't.
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Sibboleth
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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2012, 03:58:56 am »
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That's an impressively silly article, but then educated Americans do tend to be impressively silly about such things.
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« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2012, 04:19:24 am »
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Could this ironically help the EU? There was that recent vote on banks that the UK was the only one of the 27 against, but had to be unanimous. Many in the rest of the EU are interested in a stronger federal government, but obviously the UK isn't.

Yeah, indeed. It's pretty clear UK has never been interested in EU's purpose.
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22:15   ComradeSibboleth   this is all extremely terrible and in all respects absolutely fycking dire.

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« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2012, 08:10:37 am »
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Could this ironically help the EU? There was that recent vote on banks that the UK was the only one of the 27 against, but had to be unanimous. Many in the rest of the EU are interested in a stronger federal government, but obviously the UK isn't.

Yeah, indeed. It's pretty clear UK has never been interested in EU's purpose.
Well, no one was in it to "strengthen the brotherhood of free Western nations"
Jim Hacker: "Europe is a community of nations, dedicated towards one goal."
Sir Humphrey: "Oh, ha ha ha."
Jim Hacker: "May we share the joke, Humphrey?"
Sir Humphrey: "Oh Minister, let's look at this objectively. It's a game played for national interests, it always was. Why do you suppose we went into it?"
Jim Hacker: "To strengthen the brotherhood of Free Western nations."
Sir Humphrey: "Oh really. We went in to screw the French by splitting them off from the Germans."
Jim Hacker: "So why did the French go into it then?"
Sir Humphrey: "Well, to protect their inefficient farmers from commercial competition."
Jim Hacker: "That certainly doesn't apply to the Germans."
Sir Humphrey: "No no, they went in to cleanse themselves of genocide and apply for readmission to the human race."
Jim Hacker: "I never heard such appalling cynicism. At least the small nations didn't go into it for selfish reasons."
Sir Humphrey: "Oh really? Luxembourg is in it for the perks; the capital of the EEC, all that foreign money pouring in."
Jim Hacker: "Very sensible central location."
Sir Humphrey: "With the administration in Brussels and the Parliament in Strasbourg? Minister, it's like having the House of Commons in Swindon and the Civil Service in Kettering."

Basically, this is accurate.
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« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2012, 09:04:50 am »
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So many people underestimate the benefits of being in the customs union. Non-Briton, stay.

Also, every thread could do with a bit more Yes, Minister.
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MasterSanders
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« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2012, 10:05:46 am »
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Also, every thread could do with a bit more Yes, Minister.
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freefair
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2012, 11:26:33 am »
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Many in the rest of the EU are interested in a stronger federal government, but obviously the UK isn't.

Yeah, indeed. It's pretty clear UK has never been interested in EU's purpose.

That was its purpose? We only care about the free trade and movement side, near on everything else is worthless , and the existence of the CoE is a joke.
UK- leave- Join EEA.
The Ideal European project would IMO be the extension of the EEA to all 50+ European and caucasus nations.
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ingemann
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« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2012, 01:22:39 pm »
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I'm not educated here...how would this affect the EU much considering Britain doesn't use the Euro?

The effect would primary be symbolic and political. EU has always had the ideological perspective that its goal is to unite Europe to avoid future conflicts. As such Britain leaving will be a giant blow to EU's self-defination, but EU will survive it. Political the effect will be much bigger. Germany is the single most important country in EU, as such you can't rule around Germany, but Germany also need partners, while France have primary served as the partner, Britain have always been a potential alternative and under Blair before the Iraq War, it even looked like Britain could replace the axis with a more ad hoc German-British-French cooperation. With Britain out the French-German Axis will be completely dominant, especially as before the new British government, Britain was leader of the "state-right" alliance (usual in ad hoc cooparation with either Poland, Czech Republic, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands or a coalition of these countries). Without Britain such coalitions are dead, none of the other countries had a true ideological problem with increased European unification, they just looked after their interest on case to case basis.
As for the threat to French-German Axis, only Italy have the size or economy to replace Britain, but the fact that Italy is a net benefactor, have a weak political system and in fact behave and to some degree see itself as German client make it an unlikely country to try to take the British position in EU.

For Britain on the other hand in the short term, it will mean little, Britain will enter EFTA. So we are unlikely to see a exodus of business in London. In the longer term it's a disaster. EFTA is nothing more than EU's custom union with its clients. London will have to adopt anything Brussel say it have to adopt, and will have no influence in Brussel. For new businesses it will also be more favourable to set up their European headquaters in Frankfurt and Amsterdam than in London which lack influence in making directives. All in all it will be a sh**tty deal for Britain to leave, which is why none of the three big parties will try to do so.
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London Man
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« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2012, 03:44:35 am »
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So many people underestimate the benefits of being in the customs union. Non-Briton, stay.

I don't; I appreciate the shorter immigration queues.

Leaving the EU would require us to reach some kind of deal with everyone else; if we start trying to put restrictions on immigration, the fallout would be nasty.
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