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Author Topic: NE1: Capital Relocation Amendment [Tabled]  (Read 1194 times)
Pyrofox
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« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2012, 12:35:09 pm »
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Moving the capital to Buffalo sounds great, as our assembly is looking formost for revitalizing declining culture. I'm in favor of Nix's idea.
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« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2012, 02:28:08 pm »
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(via email from Vaduz, Liechtenstein)

We should strike a commission to see if a suitable location exists for a new capitl area in the greater New Haven area before we run head over heels to Buffalo.

New Haven is ideally situated for a Northeast capital area, whereas Buffalo is too remote, take that as you will.

I am confident we can locate the suitable square mileage required for a new capital somewhere in the greater New Haven area.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 02:33:00 pm by OBAMA = NIXON II »Logged



July 2 , 2014

President Obama has topped predecessor George W. Bush in another poll, but not one he would like.

In a new Quinnipiac University Poll, 33% named Obama the worst president since World War II, and 28% put Bush at the bottom of post-war presidents.

OBAMA WORSE THAN DUBYA!  WHO KNEW?
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« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2012, 03:36:34 pm »
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We should strike a commission to see if a suitable location exists for a new capitl area in the greater New Haven area before we run head over heels to Buffalo.

Let's have this discussion now. If we can't reach agreement before debate time reaches the maximum duration allowed, we can consider other options. 

Furthermore, there is no reason to prefer New Haven (or Buffalo) prima facie. We should pick our new capital based on clear, thorough reasoning rather than committing ourselves to the first city that someone happened to mention. I'm arguing for Buffalo's merits because it's lost more population over the past 50 years than any other major city in the Northeast has (and this trend shows few signs of reversing).

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New Haven is ideally situated for a Northeast capital area, whereas Buffalo is too remote, take that as you will.

Because high-speed rail links the Northeast's major cities at speeds in excess of 200 mph, you can reach Buffalo from any other major city in the Northeast within 2 and a half hours.

Buffalo to Boston: 455 miles (about 2 hours and 15 minutes)
Buffalo to New York: 387 miles (about 2 hours)
Buffalo to Philadelphia: 395 miles (about 2 hours)
Buffalo to Newark: 386 miles (about 2 hours)
Buffalo to Pittsburgh: 215 miles (just over 1 hour)

New Haven's proximity to the Northeast's most significant centers of population is an advantage. But the availability of affordable, efficient, high-speed intercity transportation in the Northeast greatly diminishes the importance of centrality.

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I am confident we can locate the suitable square mileage required for a new capital somewhere in the greater New Haven area.

That's great, but I'll need more than your word before I'm convinced that this is true. And even if we can find vacant land that is both usable and conveniently situated, it is likely to be a great deal more expensive. I don't think that the sole advantage of placing the capital in New Haven (centrality) is enough to justify this additional expense.
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Dentures, for instance, is something Medicaid recipients could live without, Astorino suggested in the interview.

When asked how someone without dentures could eat, Astorino flippantly replied with a laugh, “Soup is good.”
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« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2012, 05:19:32 pm »
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Personally, I'm convinced by the Governor's arguments.
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« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2012, 05:35:57 pm »
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I fail to be. As a compromise, let us select Walden, NY as our capital.
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« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2012, 05:37:25 pm »
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I fail to be. As a compromise, let us select Walden, NY as our capital.

Why?

EDIT: While I'd meant to direct this question at the latter part of your post, it applies to the first part as well. I don't understand what's compelling about the case for New Haven.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 05:39:01 pm by Averroės Nix »Logged

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Dentures, for instance, is something Medicaid recipients could live without, Astorino suggested in the interview.

When asked how someone without dentures could eat, Astorino flippantly replied with a laugh, “Soup is good.”
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« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2012, 06:43:42 pm »
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I fail to be. As a compromise, let us select Walden, NY as our capital.

(Via email from Vaduz, Liechtenstein)

Simfan, Walden is certainly a picturesque village, and is well situated conveniently for the Northeast.  Besides this, can you explain your reasoning for Walden as a possible location please?
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President Obama has topped predecessor George W. Bush in another poll, but not one he would like.

In a new Quinnipiac University Poll, 33% named Obama the worst president since World War II, and 28% put Bush at the bottom of post-war presidents.

OBAMA WORSE THAN DUBYA!  WHO KNEW?
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« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2012, 07:04:11 pm »
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It is in a good location centered between the centers of Newburgh, Poughkeepsie, and Middletown, NY.
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« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2012, 07:16:24 pm »
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Walden is also a small village of fewer than 10,000 residents in a region where residents are already fighting the tide of exurban sprawl. If we choose to build the new capital there, it almost certainly won't be "picturesque" by the time we're through it (at least not in the sense in which it is now). Situating the capital in Walden will disrupt life for everyone already living there and threaten the fabric of local culture.

Also, I did not object to building a new city, but that was a non-starter for some because of budgetary concerns. But Walden is so small and the existing infrastructure would be so inadequate to our needs that siting our new capital there will effectively mean that we're doing just that - with the additional expense and human toll that goes along with what will be, in effect, the demolition of the village that currently stands.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 07:18:01 pm by Averroės Nix »Logged

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Dentures, for instance, is something Medicaid recipients could live without, Astorino suggested in the interview.

When asked how someone without dentures could eat, Astorino flippantly replied with a laugh, “Soup is good.”
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« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2012, 12:07:20 am »
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(Via email from Vaduz, Liechtenstein)

I do not agree that because Walden is a small center that it is not suitable to become a capital area.  The Governor is exaggerating that locating the capital in this area will disrupt everyone's lives who live in the area.  Locating the capital in the Walden area will put this part of the state on the map, and will bring business and jobs to the area.

The way we have plans to build the capital area, wherever it is, a considerable amount of infrastructure will have to be constructed anyway.  The capital is being constructed from the ground up.  We will not be using existing buildings.  The village will not be demolished, it will be expanded, and the people who now live in the area will appreciate the boost to the local economy. 

The capital will not be in Walden itself, rather in the Walden area.  The Walden area is suitably situated to be an ideal location for the entire Northeast.   
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July 2 , 2014

President Obama has topped predecessor George W. Bush in another poll, but not one he would like.

In a new Quinnipiac University Poll, 33% named Obama the worst president since World War II, and 28% put Bush at the bottom of post-war presidents.

OBAMA WORSE THAN DUBYA!  WHO KNEW?
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« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2012, 06:32:03 am »
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I do not agree that because Walden is a small center that it is not suitable to become a capital area.  The Governor is exaggerating that locating the capital in this area will disrupt everyone's lives who live in the area.

How many people will move to Walden if the capital is moved there? We can obtain figures from the GM if you like. As someone who grew up in a rural community, I realize that doesn't take much to disrupt life in a small town. 

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Locating the capital in the Walden area will put this part of the state on the map, and will bring business and jobs to the area.

None of which I dispute, but more businesses and jobs is not always what an area needs or what its residents want. Growth for the sake of growth is the philosophy of a cancer cell. If we were talking about an area where joblessness is a problem at an appropriate scale, I would agree with you - and this is the case in Buffalo, where the unemployment rate is in the double-digits. Buffalo has more unemployed workers than Walden has residents.

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The way we have plans to build the capital area, wherever it is, a considerable amount of infrastructure will have to be constructed anyway.  The capital is being constructed from the ground up.  We will not be using existing buildings.

My case for Buffalo is largely based on the fact that the city was built for half a million people but now contains less than half that many. Yes, we will need to build a substantial amount of infrastructure. But wherever we can update, repair, or improve, we will save a significant amount of money. I thought that was the point of not building the capital on virgin land.

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The village will not be demolished.

I did not say that we would literally demolish Walden, I said that we would effectively demolish the village - its population will grow several-fold, at least. Parts may be recognizable, but considering the village as a coherent whole, the place will be entirely different.

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[Walden] will be expanded, and the people who now live in the area will appreciate the boost to the local economy.

Will they? As I said, the area is already under threat from exurban sprawl. Cincinnatus backed me up when I said the Buffalo residents were likely to be receptive, and I could provide you with some links if you like, but I think the desire among residents to re-build that city is well-known. The same cannot be said of Walden, and I expect that if we investigate, we'll find that additional development is less desired than you expect.

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The capital will not be in Walden itself, rather in the Walden area.

So we're building a new city? That's not how the amendment will read, and I was under the impression that building a new city was a non-starter for you.

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The Walden area is suitably situated to be an ideal location for the entire Northeast.   

I still don't understand the significance of centrality. Why should it trump all other concerns? The Northeast is the smallest region in Atlasia, and it has some of the best transportation infrastructure. Please tell me why this should be important to me.
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Dentures, for instance, is something Medicaid recipients could live without, Astorino suggested in the interview.

When asked how someone without dentures could eat, Astorino flippantly replied with a laugh, “Soup is good.”
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« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2012, 08:36:24 am »
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Demolishing Walden is not an issue right now. The capital need not be Walden per se, simply in that triangle of Newburgh, Poughkeepsie, and Middletown, NY. Putting it in a dense urban center like New Haven, as you said Governor, would have adverse effects... but it would in Buffalo, or any other city. Putting it an area near cities would minimize those while the enforcement of New Urbanist development principles will take care of the rest.
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« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2012, 09:04:04 am »
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What's the advantage of that site, Simfan? I'm open to persuasion, but I want our choice to be thoroughly justified.

Also - I'm arguing that placing the capital in a growing urban center would have deleterious effects. I'm not convinced that an urban center in decline would present a problem - in fact, I think that it would provide us with significant advantages.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 09:06:08 am by Averroės Nix »Logged

Quote
Dentures, for instance, is something Medicaid recipients could live without, Astorino suggested in the interview.

When asked how someone without dentures could eat, Astorino flippantly replied with a laugh, “Soup is good.”
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« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2012, 10:28:16 am »
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Demolishing Walden is not an issue right now. The capital need not be Walden per se, simply in that triangle of Newburgh, Poughkeepsie, and Middletown, NY. Putting it in a dense urban center like New Haven, as you said Governor, would have adverse effects... but it would in Buffalo, or any other city. Putting it an area near cities would minimize those while the enforcement of New Urbanist development principles will take care of the rest.

(Via email from Liechtenstein)

The Governor implied that I had said we are building a new city.  This is a false assumption.  Because we would be building in the Walden area, or whatever area, does not mean we will be building a new city.  It means we willl be building a capital area in the area of an existing community.  We will most definitely not be building a new city. 

The above statement from Representative Simfan summarizes my meaning very well. 
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President Obama has topped predecessor George W. Bush in another poll, but not one he would like.

In a new Quinnipiac University Poll, 33% named Obama the worst president since World War II, and 28% put Bush at the bottom of post-war presidents.

OBAMA WORSE THAN DUBYA!  WHO KNEW?
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« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2012, 10:46:30 am »
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You're making a distinction where there is no difference. Establishing a "capital area" near a small village would require the same level of effort and spending as we'd expend in the construction of an entirely new city.
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Dentures, for instance, is something Medicaid recipients could live without, Astorino suggested in the interview.

When asked how someone without dentures could eat, Astorino flippantly replied with a laugh, “Soup is good.”
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« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2012, 12:32:25 pm »
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(Via email from Liechtenstein)

That is absolute nonsense.  A capital area is the buildings and insrastructure for a modern, efficient capital.  It does not include the myriads of other buildings and infrastructure that an entire city has.
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July 2 , 2014

President Obama has topped predecessor George W. Bush in another poll, but not one he would like.

In a new Quinnipiac University Poll, 33% named Obama the worst president since World War II, and 28% put Bush at the bottom of post-war presidents.

OBAMA WORSE THAN DUBYA!  WHO KNEW?
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« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2012, 12:43:44 pm »
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(Via email from Liechtenstein)

That is absolute nonsense.  A capital area is the buildings and insrastructure for a modern, efficient capital.  It does not include the myriads of other buildings and infrastructure that an entire city has.

What does a 'capital area' not include?
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Dentures, for instance, is something Medicaid recipients could live without, Astorino suggested in the interview.

When asked how someone without dentures could eat, Astorino flippantly replied with a laugh, “Soup is good.”
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« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2012, 12:59:03 pm »
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I assume he means that we'll only have to build government buildings and roads and stuff.
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« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2012, 01:09:51 pm »
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I assume he means that we'll only have to build government buildings and roads and stuff.

(Via email from Liechtenstein)

Pretty much this.  Thank you Representative Jones.

I still believe that Representative Simfan's suggestion for the Walden area is an excellent idea.
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President Obama has topped predecessor George W. Bush in another poll, but not one he would like.

In a new Quinnipiac University Poll, 33% named Obama the worst president since World War II, and 28% put Bush at the bottom of post-war presidents.

OBAMA WORSE THAN DUBYA!  WHO KNEW?
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« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2012, 01:14:09 pm »
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The remainder should be left to the private sector, though I think suitable housing for the employees should be assured if requested.
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« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2012, 01:20:20 pm »
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I'm not sure what your definition of "stuff" includes, but that wouldn't answer my question anyway. What is involved that in the construction of a new city that will not be involved in the construction of a new 'capital area'?

Maybe you're thinking that the answer should be obvious to me, but it isn't. Either way, we'll need to build and upgrade roads. Either way, the new capital will require a decent international airport within spitting distance. Either way, we'll want a hospital nearby that will be large enough to meet the needs of the inevitably expanding population.

What about housing? It may be necessary for us to provide some in the short-term to avoid creating a housing shortage. (Even in a planned city, private developers would build most of the housing over the long-term).

And I haven't mentioned the costs of building, upgrading and maintaining water, sewer, electric, high-speed internet, etc.

There will be a lot of work to be done in any case, but we'll be better off if we locate the capital somewhere where much of this already exists.

EDIT: Simfan's post, which appeared as I typed this, anticipates a couple of my points.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 01:27:33 pm by Averroės Nix »Logged

Quote
Dentures, for instance, is something Medicaid recipients could live without, Astorino suggested in the interview.

When asked how someone without dentures could eat, Astorino flippantly replied with a laugh, “Soup is good.”
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« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2012, 01:25:24 pm »
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The remainder should be left to the private sector, though I think suitable housing for the employees should be assured if requested.

Agreed, but this could be the case if we were building a new city. It's not that I see anything wrong with that - it's just that I think that we need to be clear about what we're doing.
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Dentures, for instance, is something Medicaid recipients could live without, Astorino suggested in the interview.

When asked how someone without dentures could eat, Astorino flippantly replied with a laugh, “Soup is good.”
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« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2012, 03:53:33 pm »
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You keep on making reference to our high speed rail network, which if it could reasonably connect Buffalo to the rest of the region could connect Walden or one of the nearby cities to it.

Stewart International Airport is already very close. In any case, almost all of those concerns would apply to a new sector in another city s well. Hospital, internet, again, the private sector.
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« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2012, 09:18:16 pm »
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I could keep arguing, but I don't know if it's worth the effort when I'd be satisfied with the Walden site. If it's acceptable to the Assembly, it's acceptable to me. While an amendment to the regional constitution does not require my signature, I will give it my full support before the public.

I only want to make this a matter of public record: I believe that selecting a site like Buffalo would save the region a great deal of money. And as two Representatives (as well as former Speaker Cincinnatus) have indicated that Buffalo would be their first choice, I know that I am not alone in this belief. I encourage both Representative Pyrofox and Representative Jones to make it known if they are not comfortable with the selection of Walden. If a majority of Representatives cannot reach agreement, perhaps we should follow Representative Winfield's suggestion and task a commission with selecting a site and provide a more formal justification for that selection.
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Dentures, for instance, is something Medicaid recipients could live without, Astorino suggested in the interview.

When asked how someone without dentures could eat, Astorino flippantly replied with a laugh, “Soup is good.”
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« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2012, 08:55:11 am »
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I am extending debate by another 24 hours.
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