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Author Topic: Is the Democrat Party influenced by Marx?  (Read 3121 times)
AmericanNation
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« on: July 19, 2012, 02:39:35 pm »
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Lay out arguments for or against the question. 
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2012, 02:47:01 pm »
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I'm afraid to say I don't really know enough about Thai politics to comment, though I thought it was a conservative party, not Marxist?

Shouldn't this be in the International board, anyway?
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« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2012, 02:53:21 pm »
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I'm afraid to say I don't really know enough about Thai politics to comment, though I thought it was a conservative party, not Marxist?

Shouldn't this be in the International board, anyway?

The Democrat Party is much more Mongkut than Marx.
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« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2012, 02:57:26 pm »
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Is the actual Democratic Party Marxist? Not even close. Some of its members? I think so...let’s look at a few.

Barack Obama, is in my opinion, just left of center-left. He is in no way a socialist, but does have elements of it in his ideology. His ideology is certainly rooted in it. And just like I once experimented with white nationalism, he had experimented with radical leftism. For example, his involvement with the New Party back in the ‘90s.


Obama’s father was an economist and aide to former Mau-Mau leader, and Kenyan President Jomo Kenyatta, the leader of the Kenya African National Union, which at the time was your run of the mill African socialist party. Due to his fathers experiences, and evidenced by his treatment of the UK, Kenya’s former colonial oppressor, I believe Obama does have a resentment towards British people, and possibly whites in general, though that is often the excuse of white racist who hate him as much as they think he hates them. Not a single one of his policies prove this theory.

Obama clearly has his views rooted in African anti colonialist philosophy, which was often mixed in with socialism. However, as Obama rose in rank, he has realized that socialism is not popular in America, and has likely recognized that “African Socialism” is not really socialism at all. Is he, as of today, a Socialist? Absolutely not.
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AmericanNation
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« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2012, 03:04:10 pm »
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The question is not: 

ARE Democrats Marxists/Socialists

The question is:
Is the Democrat Party influenced by Marx?

Much easier bar to clear. 
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« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2012, 03:08:30 pm »
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The question is not: 

ARE Democrats Marxists/Socialists

The question is:
Is the Democrat Party influenced by Marx?

Much easier bar to clear. 


And it's clearly not. It's decidedly on the right wing of the Thai political spectrum, as Joe said.
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Speaker Dereich
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« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2012, 03:12:38 pm »
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Better question: are the Thaksinites influenced by Marxism? And will the Democrat party ever be able to win an election on their own merits?
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Scott
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« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2012, 03:19:11 pm »
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Progressivism-
A political philosophy advocating change and progress, especially as led by science. Colloquially, a "progressive" refers to a very liberal person. 2) The U.S. Progressive Movement between 1890 and 1920, which is also known as the Progressive Era. This movement was responsible for introducing the campaign primary in many states (replacing caucuses), the initiative, the referendum, and the recall, among other reforms.

Marxism-
The system of economic and political thought developed by Karl Marx, along with Friedrich Engels, especially the doctrine that the state throughout history has been a device for the exploitation of the masses by a dominant class, that class struggle has been the main agency of historical change, and that the capitalist system, containing from the first the seeds of its own decay, will inevitably, after the period of the dictatorship of the proletariat, be superseded by a socialist order and a classless society.

Just because progressivism and Marxism are on the same side of the spectrum does not mean they are interrelated, much in the same way that Nazism and conservatism are related not even though they are both on the opposite side.  Marx, himself, advocated for a brief "dictatorship of the proletariat" that would quickly evolve into a collectivist, classless society- as it says in the definition above.  Yet, a mere concern for the middle-class does not translate into a desire for that kind of fundamental change.  Of course, that isn't to say there are no Democrats might that agree with Marx theory, but in no way does this entail that the national Democratic Party is somehow influenced by Marx.

If you honestly think that what the Democratic Party supports today is a watered down version of Marxism, then your whole interpretation of politics is vastly oversimplified.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 03:22:02 pm by Senator Scott »Logged
oakvale
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« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2012, 03:31:20 pm »
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Is the actual Democratic Party Marxist? Not even close. Some of its members? I think so...let’s look at a few.

Barack Obama, is in my opinion, just left of center-left. He is in no way a socialist, but does have elements of it in his ideology. His ideology is certainly rooted in it. And just like I once experimented with white nationalism, he had experimented with radical leftism. For example, his involvement with the New Party back in the ‘90s.


Obama’s father was an economist and aide to former Mau-Mau leader, and Kenyan President Jomo Kenyatta, the leader of the Kenya African National Union, which at the time was your run of the mill African socialist party. Due to his fathers experiences, and evidenced by his treatment of the UK, Kenya’s former colonial oppressor, I believe Obama does have a resentment towards British people, and possibly whites in general, though that is often the excuse of white racist who hate him as much as they think he hates them. Not a single one of his policies prove this theory.

Obama clearly has his views rooted in African anti colonialist philosophy, which was often mixed in with socialism. However, as Obama rose in rank, he has realized that socialism is not popular in America, and has likely recognized that “African Socialism” is not really socialism at all. Is he, as of today, a Socialist? Absolutely not.


I can't even decide what this post is. It's like you're torn between the most Gingrichian paranoid racial fantasies and Moderate Heroism. "I believe Obama may hate white people, however he is not a socialist!"

It's also worth pointing out that Obama's "involvement" with the New Party involves the party endorsing him once in 1996 or something. So, uh...

To answer the premise of the thread, Marx is one of the most influential people in human history, so I guess you could argue that everyone's influenced by him in that regard. Not otherwise. I'm not that familiar with Thai politics though. Sad
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« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2012, 03:37:44 pm »
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Another thing, AN- you should have defined exactly what you meant by 'influenced.'
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« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2012, 03:57:21 pm »
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Don't you people have your own corners of the interwebs to play on?
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AmericanNation
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« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2012, 04:10:24 pm »
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Another thing, AN- you should have defined exactly what you meant by 'influenced.'
I think you could say Republicans have influences like Milton Friedman, Friedrich Hayek, Adam Smith, etc. 

Democrats have influences like John Maynard Keynes, Che Guevara, and Marx.   You could make the argument that American democrats are influenced by European socialists(who are influenced by Marx) rather than Marx himself.     
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Sibboleth
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« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2012, 04:13:01 pm »
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Democrats have influences... Che Guevar

Try harder, idiot.
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« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2012, 04:26:52 pm »
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Another thing, AN- you should have defined exactly what you meant by 'influenced.'
I think you could say Republicans have influences like Milton Friedman, Friedrich Hayek, Adam Smith, etc.  

Democrats have influences like John Maynard Keynes, Che Guevara, and Marx.   You could make the argument that American democrats are influenced by European socialists(who are influenced by Marx) rather than Marx himself.      

"You could make the argument that American democrats are influenced by European socialists(who are influenced by Marx) rather than Marx himself."

So then, you've basically contradicted yourself.

Keynes is pretty influential in Democratic politics, but Che Guevara and Karl Marx?  Give me a break.  And even if what you're saying is true, what point are you getting at?  The Democratic Party as a whole is very far to the right of Marxists and socialists, and it doesn't take a whole lot of thought to realize that.

The only left-wing politicians I'd consider European-lite would be Bernie Sanders, Sherrod Brown, and Dennis Kucinich.  But even then, to say that they're influenced by the inventor of Communism is a huge stretch.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 04:40:34 pm by Senator Scott »Logged
Miles
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« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2012, 04:39:36 pm »
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I'm not sure about the Democrat Party, but the Democratic Party might be to an extent.
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patrick1
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« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2012, 04:44:54 pm »
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Yes and so is the Republican party. He was a rather important theorist after all.

By Christ though, why are so many people who follow politics or political engaged such unreasonable people?  Some people are just so stubbornly and yet blissfully ignorant that it is maddening to read.
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AmericanNation
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« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2012, 05:37:59 pm »
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Yes and so is the Republican party. He was a rather important theorist after all.

By Christ though, why are so many people who follow politics or political engaged such unreasonable people?  Some people are just so stubbornly and yet blissfully ignorant that it is maddening to read.
I know, they were going crazy in a US senate thread about how democrats aren't influenced by Marx whatsoever and you would have to be a "narrow, ignorant, uninformed, uneducated, stupid" person to think so. 
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« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2012, 06:46:10 pm »
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if anything, I've always considered John Lindsay (who was a republican for most of his political career) to be the father of the modern democratic party.
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« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2012, 06:47:22 pm »
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Another thing, AN- you should have defined exactly what you meant by 'influenced.'
I think you could say Republicans have influences like Milton Friedman, Friedrich Hayek, Adam Smith, etc. 

Democrats have influences like John Maynard Keynes, Che Guevara, and Marx.   You could make the argument that American democrats are influenced by European socialists(who are influenced by Marx) rather than Marx himself.     

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Nathan
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« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2012, 07:01:27 pm »
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But seriously, modernity itself is influenced by Marx. Profoundly. (It's also influenced by, for example, Newton, Voltaire, Comte.) If any more profoundly in the case of the Democratic Party than in other cases, only by a trivial amount, relatively speaking.
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His idea of freedom is - it is a bad thing and should be stopped at all costs.

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« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2012, 07:06:30 pm »
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But seriously, modernity itself is influenced by Marx. Profoundly. (It's also influenced by, for example, Newton, Voltaire, Comte.) If any more profoundly in the case of the Democratic Party than in other cases, only by a trivial amount, relatively speaking.

Basically this was going to be my attempt at a 'serious' answer. I would say though the ghost of vulgar marxism consistently haunts all political discourse to this even in places where at first glance Marx is the 'enemy' (American conservatism are fond of what might be termed 'reserve vulgar marxism' in their rhetoric for example).
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« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2012, 09:01:16 pm »
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The degree of political retardation in this thread is seriously mind-boggling.

Please get a new argument, no one besides academics, who are paid to and people who don't wash as a political statement actually take Marx remotely seriously today.
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« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2012, 09:02:56 pm »
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To fix the title.
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« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2012, 09:57:31 pm »
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No, the party's comedic timing still needs a lot of work.
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« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2012, 09:58:24 pm »
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This thread would have been better if everyone kept the Thai party thing going, instead of answering this question seriously.
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