14 killed in mass shooting at Batman screening

[patrick1]

True.  Mass shootings are so commonplace now that they are to be expected rather than a cause of surprise. As Memphis stated and Obama alluded to, many more are killed in smaller scale gun violence daily.

I'm a bit bemused by those who are horrified that you should even bring up the gun control topic.  Things like this now happen on a quarterly basis. Adults should be allowed to have adult conversations while still be respectful of the dead.  The fact that most Americans on both sides of the issue seem to be incapable of having a level headed discussion is further evidence that we live in a rather immature country that can't walk and chew gum at the same time. It is true that a determined person can find dozens and hundreds of ways to kill many people. However, readily available firearms just makes it easy for them. Rather than focus on what type of weapon used- can't we ask why any nutjob with a pulse can seemingly get an AR15. There has to be additional standards and screening put in place that assures that someone is trained in safety, competent and not a danger to themselves or the community.  Yet, I fear that were this even whispered many paranoids (you know the ones who shouldn't really have guns) would be up in arms, so to speak, that fedgov is ready to put them in camps....

[milhouse24]

When I first watched Heath Ledger in Dark kNight, I thought it was the most violent and psychopathic movie ever.  Nolan tried to make the movie feel real.  In doing so, he made the killing of innocent civilians of Gotham in the movie realistic and plausible by an insane mad man Joker. 

In Dark Knight, the Joker kills innocent people in hospitals, on boats, in buildings, and just about everywhere.  Ledger was a great actor, but the Joker character was just disgustingly warped, like he had no ounce of humanity and was obsessed with killing as many innocent people as possible for no reason, other than to kill people. 

It was just a sickening movie, and I can easily see how a mentally unstable person can watch the film repeatedly and get a feeling that humans are the worthless bodies shown in the movie.  Its just a traumatic movie.  In seeing the previews for the 3rd batman movie, the callous death of football players in the stadium is just sickening.  I just get a really violent vibe from the films, and it glorifies mass murder. 

The villain isn't the one that's glorified, the hero who stops him is. Just because something happens in a movie, a television show, a book, or any other form of media, doesn't mean it's being glorified. Oy.

Well, Heath Ledger got a lot of screen time for setting up elaborate mass murder scenes in such a sadistic and dehumanizing way for no particular reason other than to illustrate was a detached non-human with no care about innocent life.  

In most films, villains commit murder or other violent acts to get money or power, etc.  But in Dark Knight, the Joker enjoyed committing murder for the sake of committing murder and spreading mayhem and death, for no reason other than to create mayhem.  

It was really only at the end that Batman figures a way to stop him.  At least the first movie was about Bruce Wayne's development.  The second movie was about how insane and dark could they make the Joker character.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

When I first watched Heath Ledger in Dark kNight, I thought it was the most violent and psychopathic movie ever.  Nolan tried to make the movie feel real.  In doing so, he made the killing of innocent civilians of Gotham in the movie realistic and plausible by an insane mad man Joker. 

In Dark Knight, the Joker kills innocent people in hospitals, on boats, in buildings, and just about everywhere.  Ledger was a great actor, but the Joker character was just disgustingly warped, like he had no ounce of humanity and was obsessed with killing as many innocent people as possible for no reason, other than to kill people. 

It was just a sickening movie, and I can easily see how a mentally unstable person can watch the film repeatedly and get a feeling that humans are the worthless bodies shown in the movie.  Its just a traumatic movie.  In seeing the previews for the 3rd batman movie, the callous death of football players in the stadium is just sickening.  I just get a really violent vibe from the films, and it glorifies mass murder. 

The villain isn't the one that's glorified, the hero who stops him is. Just because something happens in a movie, a television show, a book, or any other form of media, doesn't mean it's being glorified. Oy.

One meme that has gotten explored quite often in the Batman mythos is whether those supervillains would do the things they do if there was no Batman.

[WhyteRain]

I've been thinking about this and I think this is the 9/11 of terrorism at movie theaters.

Our response should be the same:  Have the government take over theater security.

TSA -- even the initials fit.

[patrick1]

Many people are shot in this country every day. This incident isn't even a drop in the bucket. Yes, it's very weird, random, and senseless, but people are acting like gun violence isn't an everyday fact of life in the United States. And I'm not saying that I have a solution either. Though I think we must consider what we can do as a matter of public policy to change this fact. I just don't understand why people who have no connection to the victims are so shocked. 

Because it was a mass shooting in a public place, with many victims. How often are dozens of people shot in a movie theater-especially by someone they don't know?

There have been dozens of shootings at movie theaters so much that there have been metal detectors and the like at "urban" venues. This just has a higher body account, was in the suburbs and a white perp. Even discounting that, a venue should not be surprising because there have been mass shootings in church, malls, schools, the workplace, courts etc etc etc.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Many people are shot in this country every day. This incident isn't even a drop in the bucket. Yes, it's very weird, random, and senseless, but people are acting like gun violence isn't an everyday fact of life in the United States. And I'm not saying that I have a solution either. Though I think we must consider what we can do as a matter of public policy to change this fact. I just don't understand why people who have no connection to the victims are so shocked. 

Because it was a mass shooting in a public place, with many victims. How often are dozens of people shot in a movie theater-especially by someone they don't know?

There have been dozens of shootings at movie theaters so much that there have been metal detectors and the like at "urban" venues. This just has a higher body account, was in the suburbs and a white perp. Even discounting that, a venue should not be surprising because there have been mass shootings in church, malls, schools, the workplace, courts etc etc etc.

Ok, so let's look at the reaction again. First, the media always overreacts to these type of events. Second, I haven't observed people being really "shocked" at this. I'm not. Sad, yes, and angry because it's yet another example of the result of America's shameful laws regarding guns. But whatever.

[Foucaulf]

Been paying attention to this all day. Was shocked for a few minutes, and then spent the rest of the time trying to say something meaningful.

There's a pattern with these shootings, where once the suspect's caught every news network has to act the armchair shrink. This time he's supposed to be the Joker or whatever. From there everyone with a bone to pick about modernity gets another piece of evidence in his arsenal.

This is understandable; there needs to be a focus on justice after the fact. But within all the debate over culpability and morality not a single position can be adopted - and we're back to what to do about the weapons in question, which in turn goes back to Oakvale's incredible post.

[RI]

In Dark Knight, the Joker kills innocent people in hospitals, on boats, in buildings, and just about everywhere.  Ledger was a great actor, but the Joker character was just disgustingly warped, like he had no ounce of humanity and was obsessed with killing as many innocent people as possible for no reason, other than to kill people.  

Did you watch The Dark Knight? Nobody died on the boats or in the hospital. I can think of only a handful of 'innocent' people (non-mob people) who were killed by the Joker: Rachael Dawes, that one guy who dressed as Batman, possibly someone at the bank (though mostly just fellow criminals, and it was a mob bank), the insane guy with the cell phone in his stomach, and a handful of public officials. The Joker was much more about getting other people to kill each other for his amusement and creating general chaos than simply racking up a murder total. By movie standards, he hardly killed anyone.

[retromike22]

Roger Ebert on the shootings:

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2012/07/the_body_count.html

[memphis]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ej-dionne-on-the-colorado-shooting-the-gag-rule-on-guns/2012/07/20/gJQAt4gPyW_story.html?hpid=z2

[WhyteRain]

Why are people talking about "gun laws" when that obviously won't do any good?

What are you going to do -- pass a law against carrying guns in theaters?  Against medical students owning them?

I say let's do it like the airports -- frisk all the moviegoers before they go in.   Hey, seeing a movie is a privilege, not a right!

[exopolitician]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ej-dionne-on-the-colorado-shooting-the-gag-rule-on-guns/2012/07/20/gJQAt4gPyW_story.html?hpid=z2

Spot on.

[greenforest32]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ej-dionne-on-the-colorado-shooting-the-gag-rule-on-guns/2012/07/20/gJQAt4gPyW_story.html?hpid=z2

Spot on.

[WhyteRain]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ej-dionne-on-the-colorado-shooting-the-gag-rule-on-guns/2012/07/20/gJQAt4gPyW_story.html?hpid=z2

Spot on.

You don't notice any problem with Dionne's argument?  Let's look at it as reasonable people:

 

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I think those three paragraphs are the essence of Dionne's claim, right?  What's missing?

[milhouse24]

In Dark Knight, the Joker kills innocent people in hospitals, on boats, in buildings, and just about everywhere.  Ledger was a great actor, but the Joker character was just disgustingly warped, like he had no ounce of humanity and was obsessed with killing as many innocent people as possible for no reason, other than to kill people.  

Did you watch The Dark Knight? Nobody died on the boats or in the hospital. I can think of only a handful of 'innocent' people (non-mob people) who were killed by the Joker: Rachael Dawes, that one guy who dressed as Batman, possibly someone at the bank (though mostly just fellow criminals, and it was a mob bank), the insane guy with the cell phone in his stomach, and a handful of public officials. The Joker was much more about getting other people to kill each other for his amusement and creating general chaos than simply racking up a murder total. By movie standards, he hardly killed anyone.

Okay, just rewatched Dark Knight and Ledger's Joker just struck me as the most depraved mass anarchist on film.  His only goal was not money or power, but mass mayhem and chaos.  His goal was to prove that humans do not care about other human life.  He was just a demented character who wanted as much death as possible.  It just felt like Chris Nolan kept ratching up the insanity level of the criminal acts that the Joker would commit.  Blowing up a hospital and endagering sick people, manipulating everyone to commit murder, forcing the ship passengers to choose between their life or killing others. 

The movie just felt soulless, like the opposite of heartwarming.  Sure it was well made and well produced, but the theme that "anyone can be corrupted to commit murder" just like Two Face/Harvey Dent, just makes audiences lose faith in humanity.  With Ledger getting so much screen time, it showed a powerful charismatic sociopath capable of inducing mass mayhem and hysteria with just a few threats.  Its disturbing.  On some level, Chris Nolan is trying to make a psychological film about evil and the line that Batman crosses between doing good and killing bad guys. 

Ledger deserved to win the Oscar, but his portrayal will live for eternity as steadily chilling.  At least Jack Nicholson's joker was fun and cartoonish.  There's nothing redeeming about Ledger's Joker, he's not human at all, just pure 100% insanity. 

[Vote UKIP!]

I think those three paragraphs are the essence of Dionne's claim, right?  What's missing?

That the author is also exploiting the situation for his political agenda?

[Marokai Backbeat]

Stay classy gun control nuts.

This kind of sentiment is the kind of the thing that could easily go in the things that are f'd up about the US thread. In any other (supposedly) civilized country in the world a tragedy like this might actually lead people to reexamine their bizarre gun laws - or lack thereof. When a maniac massacred sixteen people in Dunblane in 1996, there was a near-unanimous consensus that the UK needed to tighten its gun control - and they did, with universal public support.

Only in America is the reaction to things like this a horrified panic at the very idea that there might have to be the slightest scrap of extra regulation on guns, because, lest we forget, it's a God-given right to allow lunatics to own the kind of tools that let them murder people with wild abandon.

I can't believe you have the gall to accuse people of "politicizing" this - as if this doesn't inherently have political ramifications and, more to the point, as if your very post wasn't a sleazy and political attack on those of us who think the sheer amount of violent firearms massacres in the United States might - just might - warrant a re-examination of the law.

The same goes for Sanchez and Sanders - spare us the phony outrage. Please. The idea that this incident can be shrugged off as "huh, it was just some nut, what you gonna do?" as if it's merely a sad but predictable and even acceptable event in a healthy society. This isn't normal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ej-dionne-on-the-colorado-shooting-the-gag-rule-on-guns/2012/07/20/gJQAt4gPyW_story.html?hpid=z2

Spot on.

The only worthwhile things in this entire thread. Just another issue that this country is hopelessly f**ked on and can never make any progress with. Just another issue caused by the over-representation of rural areas and our timid two party system.

[dead0man]

Stay classy gun control nuts.

This kind of sentiment is the kind of the thing that could easily go in the things that are f'd up about the US thread. In any other (supposedly) civilized country in the world a tragedy like this might actually lead people to reexamine their bizarre gun laws - or lack thereof.

My issue wasn't with the debate, it was the location of the debate.  Start a new freaking thread to debate the gun laws if you must, I just think this is the wrong forum (in the traditional sense) for it.  I took sh**t for challenging the claim that Rodney King was a "hero" in his "RIP" thread.  I consider what y'all are doing to be substantially worse.

[Comrade Funk]

I get so sick of this world sometimes. Unfortunately, there are just evil people out there. RIP.

[Sbane]

First of all I would like to say RIP to all the victims and extend my condolences to the families of the victims.

That being said this thread is fair game for a gun control discussion. We should make these sorts of guns very hard to get and put people through multiple screenings, background checks etc etc. I don't care how inconvenient it is, it's less inconvenient than having your loved one taken away from you by a crazy person. Yes, people kill people not guns, but we can institute more checks to make sure these crazy people don't get their hands on guns. And even if they do, better it be a rifle or a handgun than an AR-15. Those sorts of guns should be taken off the market. Not because we are denying access to criminals (real criminals will find a way) but to deny easy access to these crazy people. It's much more likely he would have carried this out with a less destructive gun rather than trying to scour out an AR-15 or equivalent gun on the black market. So why not ban these guns and make it that much harder to get?

[© tweed]

First of all I would like to say RIP to all the victims and extend my condolences to the families of the victims.

they won't see this

[Sbane]

Stay classy gun control nuts.

This kind of sentiment is the kind of the thing that could easily go in the things that are f'd up about the US thread. In any other (supposedly) civilized country in the world a tragedy like this might actually lead people to reexamine their bizarre gun laws - or lack thereof.

My issue wasn't with the debate, it was the location of the debate.  Start a new freaking thread to debate the gun laws if you must, I just think this is the wrong forum (in the traditional sense) for it.  I took sh**t for challenging the claim that Rodney King was a "hero" in his "RIP" thread.  I consider what y'all are doing to be substantially worse.

So what should we discuss in this thread? Just say RIP and leave? This is not like a thread on Rodney King or a politician. Nobody here is sh**tting on the victims or the dead like it would be case with you trashing Rodney King in his death thread or others talking trashing Jesse Helms in his death thread.

I know you guys don't like to hear it but the reason why a guy is able to get an AR-15 and go on a shootout is because of lax gun laws. It's possible someone would be able to get an AR-15 from the black market and do this but it's about a 100 times harder, especially for someone like him who would not be in contact with the black market. If he was doing this with a less powerful gun, it's possible that less people would be grieving for their loved ones tonight.

[dead0man]

First of all I would like to say RIP to all the victims and extend my condolences to the families of the victims.

That being said this thread is fair game for a gun control discussion. We should make these sorts of guns very hard to get and put people through multiple screenings, background checks etc etc. I don't care how inconvenient it is, it's less inconvenient than having your loved one taken away from you by a crazy person. Yes, people kill people not guns, but we can institute more checks to make sure these crazy people don't get their hands on guns. And even if they do, better it be a rifle or a handgun than an AR-15. Those sorts of guns should be taken off the market. Not because we are denying access to criminals (real criminals will find a way) but to deny easy access to these crazy people. It's much more likely he would have carried this out with a less destructive gun rather than trying to scour out an AR-15 or equivalent gun on the black market. So why not ban these guns and make it that much harder to get?

But there is little difference between an AR-15 and any other .22 caliber, semi-auto rifle other than <spooky voice> the scary look </voice>.  Are we taking them ALL off the market?

So what should we discuss in this thread? Just say RIP and leave? This is not like a thread on Rodney King or a politician. Nobody here is sh**tting on the victims or the dead like it would be case with you trashing Rodney King in his death thread or others talking trashing Jesse Helms in his death thread.

I know you guys don't like to hear it but the reason why a guy is able to get an AR-15 and go on a shootout is because of lax gun laws. It's possible someone would be able to get an AR-15 from the black market and do this but it's about a 100 times harder, especially for someone like him who would not be in contact with the black market. If he was doing this with a less powerful gun, it's possible that less people would be grieving for their loved ones tonight.

Again, what would be wrong with starting a second thread about gun control?

[Sbane]

Not an expert on guns obviously....but any gun where you are able to shoot off so many rounds in such a short amount of time should not be allowed, yes. So all semi autos I guess. Did the AWB not ban all of them? Also what exactly is the use for the semi automatics which could not be accomplished with other rifles or a handgun?

[dead0man]

Not an expert on guns obviously....but any gun where you are able to shoot off so many rounds in such a short amount of time should not be allowed, yes. So all semi autos I guess. Did the AWB not ban all of them?

The AWB only banned cosmetic things and large (more than 10 rounds) magazines.  While I wouldn't like re-limiting them, I'd be willing to concede it as part of a compromise.

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Hunting is easier as you can fire a second shot right away without having to re-aim as much, though bolt action rifles tend to be more accurate.  It doesn't matter, there is no way you are going to ban ALL semiautomatic rifles.  Magazine capacity, sure.  More pointless cosmetic bans/bans on specific weapons, sure.  A general ban on all semi-autos, no chance.