Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
April 23, 2014, 02:48:45 pm
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Don't forget to get your 2013 Gubernatorial Endorsements and Predictions in!

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  General Politics
| |-+  Political Geography & Demographics (Moderator: muon2)
| | |-+  NC redistricting revisited
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 Print
Author Topic: NC redistricting revisited  (Read 3942 times)
timothyinMD
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 441


View Profile
« on: July 16, 2012, 03:15:10 pm »
Ignore

This has nothing to do with Md, but I opposed extreme gerrymandering consistently such as NC, OH and PA.. and crafted alternates that would be fairer.. example:

Logged
Vazdul (Formerly Chairman of the Communist Party of Ontario)
Vazdul
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4410
United States


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2012, 03:37:53 am »
Ignore

This has nothing to do with Md, but I opposed extreme gerrymandering consistently such as NC, OH and PA.. and crafted alternates that would be fairer.. example:



Less ugly? Yes. Fairer. Not by a long shot.
Logged

Seriously, it was time to change back to the real avatar.
timothyinMD
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 441


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2012, 09:55:54 pm »
Ignore

This has nothing to do with Md, but I opposed extreme gerrymandering consistently such as NC, OH and PA.. and crafted alternates that would be fairer.. example:



Less ugly? Yes. Fairer. Not by a long shot.

Fairer because Wake and Mecklenberg each have their own CD, and the dems would have a slight edge in the Wake seat
Logged
Vazdul (Formerly Chairman of the Communist Party of Ontario)
Vazdul
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4410
United States


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2012, 07:46:51 pm »
Ignore

This has nothing to do with Md, but I opposed extreme gerrymandering consistently such as NC, OH and PA.. and crafted alternates that would be fairer.. example:



Less ugly? Yes. Fairer. Not by a long shot.

Fairer because Wake and Mecklenberg each have their own CD, and the dems would have a slight edge in the Wake seat

I'll give you that, perhaps, but:

1. Buncombe County is needlessly split for partisan gain, and
2. Greensboro is attached to Durham and Chapel Hill via a snake through Burlington, for partisan gain.

I'm also not fond of pairing inner-city Raleigh with rural blacks, but I guess that's unavoidable as long as the VRA forces racial gerrymandering.

So I guess it is in a sense, "fairer," but that's not saying much.
Logged

Seriously, it was time to change back to the real avatar.
muon2
Moderator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8112


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2012, 11:22:14 pm »

This has nothing to do with Md, but I opposed extreme gerrymandering consistently such as NC, OH and PA.. and crafted alternates that would be fairer.. example:



Less ugly? Yes. Fairer. Not by a long shot.

Fairer because Wake and Mecklenberg each have their own CD, and the dems would have a slight edge in the Wake seat

I'll give you that, perhaps, but:

1. Buncombe County is needlessly split for partisan gain, and
2. Greensboro is attached to Durham and Chapel Hill via a snake through Burlington, for partisan gain.

I'm also not fond of pairing inner-city Raleigh with rural blacks, but I guess that's unavoidable as long as the VRA forces racial gerrymandering.

So I guess it is in a sense, "fairer," but that's not saying much.

And does it force it if the district is below 50% BVAP? The district in the map looks like it might be to me below 50%.
Logged


Lunar Eclipse of April 15, 2014 with the star Spica.
Vazdul (Formerly Chairman of the Communist Party of Ontario)
Vazdul
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4410
United States


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2012, 12:35:22 am »
Ignore

This has nothing to do with Md, but I opposed extreme gerrymandering consistently such as NC, OH and PA.. and crafted alternates that would be fairer.. example:



Less ugly? Yes. Fairer. Not by a long shot.

Fairer because Wake and Mecklenberg each have their own CD, and the dems would have a slight edge in the Wake seat

I'll give you that, perhaps, but:

1. Buncombe County is needlessly split for partisan gain, and
2. Greensboro is attached to Durham and Chapel Hill via a snake through Burlington, for partisan gain.

I'm also not fond of pairing inner-city Raleigh with rural blacks, but I guess that's unavoidable as long as the VRA forces racial gerrymandering.

So I guess it is in a sense, "fairer," but that's not saying much.

And does it force it if the district is below 50% BVAP? The district in the map looks like it might be to me below 50%.

Hmm... it looks like you may be right. After mapping it out myself, I'm under 50% BVAP with the district about 25K short, and no more black precincts in Raleigh. But it's not too far off, and can be brought above that threshold with a few minor alterations.

I'm no expert on how it is determined where VRA districts are legally required, but I'd say that as long as racial gerrymandering is enforced, one probably should be required in northeastern North Carolina. The black population there is fairly evenly spread out within the district, and there are no significant intervening areas of non-black population. Contrast this with the current NC-12, where I don't think a VRA district should be required, as it pairs blacks in Charlotte with blacks in Greensboro/Winston-Salem by stringing them together via a bunch a white areas.
Logged

Seriously, it was time to change back to the real avatar.
Vazdul (Formerly Chairman of the Communist Party of Ontario)
Vazdul
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4410
United States


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2012, 12:36:08 am »
Ignore

If the Pubs manage to hold on to the Bartlett seat, the Dems might throw in the towel should target Harris in a redraw. Yes, the "if" is a pretty high hurdle I understand. But it is not impossible to overcome.

Fixed. Tongue
Logged

Seriously, it was time to change back to the real avatar.
BigSkyBob
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2259
View Profile
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2012, 10:53:45 am »
Ignore

This has nothing to do with Md, but I opposed extreme gerrymandering consistently such as NC, OH and PA.. and crafted alternates that would be fairer.. example:



Less ugly? Yes. Fairer. Not by a long shot.

Fairer because Wake and Mecklenberg each have their own CD, and the dems would have a slight edge in the Wake seat

I'll give you that, perhaps, but:

1. Buncombe County is needlessly split for partisan gain, and

Some county in Western North Carolina had to be split to acheive OMOV. Buncombe simply does not have a right to an exemption. Splitting Buncombe is inherently no more, or no less, "unfair" than splitting any other county in Western North Carolina to acheive OMOV.

Logged

The real scandal in Washington is not the bribery, corruption, or sex. It is how poorly we are governed.
Vazdul (Formerly Chairman of the Communist Party of Ontario)
Vazdul
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4410
United States


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2012, 03:13:16 pm »
Ignore

This has nothing to do with Md, but I opposed extreme gerrymandering consistently such as NC, OH and PA.. and crafted alternates that would be fairer.. example:



Less ugly? Yes. Fairer. Not by a long shot.

Fairer because Wake and Mecklenberg each have their own CD, and the dems would have a slight edge in the Wake seat

I'll give you that, perhaps, but:

1. Buncombe County is needlessly split for partisan gain, and

Some county in Western North Carolina had to be split to acheive OMOV. Buncombe simply does not have a right to an exemption. Splitting Buncombe is inherently no more, or no less, "unfair" than splitting any other county in Western North Carolina to acheive OMOV.



Asheville is the largest city in Western North Carolina. It belongs in a district in Western North Carolina, not in a district anchored by Gastonia and Hickory. And the fact that it was sunk into a district containing some of the most Republican counties in the state absolutely reeks of partisan intent.
Logged

Seriously, it was time to change back to the real avatar.
muon2
Moderator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8112


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2012, 04:17:41 pm »

This has nothing to do with Md, but I opposed extreme gerrymandering consistently such as NC, OH and PA.. and crafted alternates that would be fairer.. example:



Less ugly? Yes. Fairer. Not by a long shot.

Fairer because Wake and Mecklenberg each have their own CD, and the dems would have a slight edge in the Wake seat

I'll give you that, perhaps, but:

1. Buncombe County is needlessly split for partisan gain, and

Some county in Western North Carolina had to be split to acheive OMOV. Buncombe simply does not have a right to an exemption. Splitting Buncombe is inherently no more, or no less, "unfair" than splitting any other county in Western North Carolina to acheive OMOV.



Asheville is the largest city in Western North Carolina. It belongs in a district in Western North Carolina, not in a district anchored by Gastonia and Hickory. And the fact that it was sunk into a district containing some of the most Republican counties in the state absolutely reeks of partisan intent.

It is not unusual to see anti-gerrymandering rules that require larger counties to be split before smaller counties when a choice is available. In that case Buncombe would be the county to split in western NC. It's the division between 4 and 13 that would bother me more since it needlessly splits two counties in a way that suggests partisan gerrymandering.
Logged


Lunar Eclipse of April 15, 2014 with the star Spica.
Miles
MilesC56
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 13022
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.26, S: 6.26

View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2012, 05:21:47 pm »
Ignore

This has nothing to do with Md, but I opposed extreme gerrymandering consistently such as NC, OH and PA.. and crafted alternates that would be fairer.. example:



Less ugly? Yes. Fairer. Not by a long shot.

Fairer because Wake and Mecklenberg each have their own CD, and the dems would have a slight edge in the Wake seat

I'll give you that, perhaps, but:

1. Buncombe County is needlessly split for partisan gain, and

Some county in Western North Carolina had to be split to acheive OMOV. Buncombe simply does not have a right to an exemption. Splitting Buncombe is inherently no more, or no less, "unfair" than splitting any other county in Western North Carolina to acheive OMOV.



Asheville is the largest city in Western North Carolina. It belongs in a district in Western North Carolina, not in a district anchored by Gastonia and Hickory. And the fact that it was sunk into a district containing some of the most Republican counties in the state absolutely reeks of partisan intent.

It is not unusual to see anti-gerrymandering rules that require larger counties to be split before smaller counties when a choice is available. In that case Buncombe would be the county to split in western NC. It's the division between 4 and 13 that would bother me more since it needlessly splits two counties in a way that suggests partisan gerrymandering.

Wouldn't your NC-01 be illegal since it pulls out of several Section 5 counties along the east coast?

McIntyre could still hang on pretty easily but Kissell would probably in worse shape than he's in now.

What are the numbers for your CD2 and CD6?
Logged

Vazdul (Formerly Chairman of the Communist Party of Ontario)
Vazdul
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4410
United States


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2012, 05:34:35 pm »
Ignore

This has nothing to do with Md, but I opposed extreme gerrymandering consistently such as NC, OH and PA.. and crafted alternates that would be fairer.. example:



Less ugly? Yes. Fairer. Not by a long shot.

Fairer because Wake and Mecklenberg each have their own CD, and the dems would have a slight edge in the Wake seat

I'll give you that, perhaps, but:

1. Buncombe County is needlessly split for partisan gain, and

Some county in Western North Carolina had to be split to acheive OMOV. Buncombe simply does not have a right to an exemption. Splitting Buncombe is inherently no more, or no less, "unfair" than splitting any other county in Western North Carolina to acheive OMOV.



Asheville is the largest city in Western North Carolina. It belongs in a district in Western North Carolina, not in a district anchored by Gastonia and Hickory. And the fact that it was sunk into a district containing some of the most Republican counties in the state absolutely reeks of partisan intent.

It is not unusual to see anti-gerrymandering rules that require larger counties to be split before smaller counties when a choice is available. In that case Buncombe would be the county to split in western NC. It's the division between 4 and 13 that would bother me more since it needlessly splits two counties in a way that suggests partisan gerrymandering.

I understand that the intent behind such rules is to ensure that smaller counties are not disenfranchised by being split, and I can respect that intent. I, however, am of the view that maintaining the integrity of communities of interest should be the primary goal of redistricting. Communities of interest tend to be built around urban areas. It bothers me when these urban cores are split.

Take Idaho as an example. IIRC, Idaho's redistricting rules require that large counties be split first, then if cities need to get split, larger cities are split first. This basically means that Boise gets screwed. To me it would make much more sense to have a district anchored in Boise and its suburbs and a district comprised of the rest of the state.

EDIT: Any chance that the North Carolina stuff could be moved to another thread? We seem to be hijacking a discussion about Maryland.
Logged

Seriously, it was time to change back to the real avatar.
timothyinMD
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 441


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2012, 06:11:59 pm »
Ignore

This has nothing to do with Md, but I opposed extreme gerrymandering consistently such as NC, OH and PA.. and crafted alternates that would be fairer.. example:



Less ugly? Yes. Fairer. Not by a long shot.

Fairer because Wake and Mecklenberg each have their own CD, and the dems would have a slight edge in the Wake seat

I'll give you that, perhaps, but:

1. Buncombe County is needlessly split for partisan gain, and
2. Greensboro is attached to Durham and Chapel Hill via a snake through Burlington, for partisan gain.

I'm also not fond of pairing inner-city Raleigh with rural blacks, but I guess that's unavoidable as long as the VRA forces racial gerrymandering.

So I guess it is in a sense, "fairer," but that's not saying much.

And does it force it if the district is below 50% BVAP? The district in the map looks like it might be to me below 50%.

Hmm... it looks like you may be right. After mapping it out myself, I'm under 50% BVAP with the district about 25K short, and no more black precincts in Raleigh. But it's not too far off, and can be brought above that threshold with a few minor alterations.

I'm no expert on how it is determined where VRA districts are legally required, but I'd say that as long as racial gerrymandering is enforced, one probably should be required in northeastern North Carolina. The black population there is fairly evenly spread out within the district, and there are no significant intervening areas of non-black population. Contrast this with the current NC-12, where I don't think a VRA district should be required, as it pairs blacks in Charlotte with blacks in Greensboro/Winston-Salem by stringing them together via a bunch a white areas.

In the NC map I drew, the 1st district is 48.5% VAP black if I remember correctly-- more than enough to elect a black representative
Logged
Vazdul (Formerly Chairman of the Communist Party of Ontario)
Vazdul
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4410
United States


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2012, 06:48:22 pm »
Ignore

In the NC map I drew, the 1st district is 48.5% VAP black if I remember correctly-- more than enough to elect a black representative

While I agree that the district you drew would probably elect a black representative, the VRA may require that the VAP black percentage be above 50%. But I'm not an expert on this, and it's a fairly easy fix anyway.
Logged

Seriously, it was time to change back to the real avatar.
BigSkyBob
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2259
View Profile
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2012, 06:48:48 pm »
Ignore

This has nothing to do with Md, but I opposed extreme gerrymandering consistently such as NC, OH and PA.. and crafted alternates that would be fairer.. example:



Less ugly? Yes. Fairer. Not by a long shot.

Fairer because Wake and Mecklenberg each have their own CD, and the dems would have a slight edge in the Wake seat

I'll give you that, perhaps, but:

1. Buncombe County is needlessly split for partisan gain, and

Some county in Western North Carolina had to be split to achieve OMOV. Buncombe simply does not have a right to an exemption. Splitting Buncombe is inherently no more, or no less, "unfair" than splitting any other county in Western North Carolina to achieve OMOV.



Asheville is the largest city in Western North Carolina. It belongs in a district in Western North Carolina, not in a district anchored by Gastonia and Hickory.

Every county might very well have its own special pleading. The more rural counties in Western North Carolina would probably prefer a district not anchored in an urban county. Not all such pleadings can be honored.  Posting the special pleading that futher your position and ignoring those special pleadings that don't further your position belies a certain partisan intent, eh?
Logged

The real scandal in Washington is not the bribery, corruption, or sex. It is how poorly we are governed.
Vazdul (Formerly Chairman of the Communist Party of Ontario)
Vazdul
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4410
United States


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2012, 07:33:08 pm »
Ignore

Every county might very well have its own special pleading. The more rural counties in Western North Carolina would probably prefer a district not anchored in an urban county. Not all such pleadings can be honored.  Posting the special pleading that futher your position and ignoring those special pleadings that don't further your position belies a certain partisan intent, eh?

I really don't think that that claim holds water in this case. I'm almost certain that Asheville has anchored the Western North Carolina district since the founding of the state. And I'm sure that folks in places like Hendersonville and Waynesville share a closer connection to Asheville than folks in Gastonia.

Also, I'm not ignoring the special pleadings of other counties. Just as I think Asheville is a better fit in the Western district, I think that counties like Burke and Caldwell would fit better with Catawba. They do, after all, share a metropolitan area.
Logged

Seriously, it was time to change back to the real avatar.
Miles
MilesC56
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 13022
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.26, S: 6.26

View Profile WWW
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2012, 09:04:57 pm »
Ignore


In the NC map I drew, the 1st district is 48.5% VAP black if I remember correctly-- more than enough to elect a black representative

Well, it would still retrogress out of 6 VRA-covered counties. Thats why the the Assembly had to redraw their original CD1 so that it complied with Section 5.

This is the cleanest legal iteration of CD1 that I've come up with.

50.5% Black VAP, 67.0% Obama



Every county might very well have its own special pleading. The more rural counties in Western North Carolina would probably prefer a district not anchored in an urban county. Not all such pleadings can be honored.  Posting the special pleading that futher your position and ignoring those special pleadings that don't further your position belies a certain partisan intent, eh?

I really don't think that that claim holds water in this case. I'm almost certain that Asheville has anchored the Western North Carolina district since the founding of the state. And I'm sure that folks in places like Hendersonville and Waynesville share a closer connection to Asheville than folks in Gastonia.

Also, I'm not ignoring the special pleadings of other counties. Just as I think Asheville is a better fit in the Western district, I think that counties like Burke and Caldwell would fit better with Catawba. They do, after all, share a metropolitan area.

Agreed, Vazdul. As someonw who's lived in NC for 8 years, I can tell you that Bob is wrong. Culturally, Asheville has much more in common with the rural mountain counties than it does with suburban/exurban Charlotte.
Logged

BigSkyBob
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2259
View Profile
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2012, 12:53:22 am »
Ignore

Every county might very well have its own special pleading. The more rural counties in Western North Carolina would probably prefer a district not anchored in an urban county. Not all such pleadings can be honored.  Posting the special pleading that futher your position and ignoring those special pleadings that don't further your position belies a certain partisan intent, eh?

I really don't think that that claim holds water in this case. I'm almost certain that Asheville has anchored the Western North Carolina district since the founding of the state.

A statement that is utterly irrelevant to whether, or not, the folks in the rural counties would prefer an all rural district [something you would consider a "community of interest," whatever that means.] Just because they were stuck with Asheville in the past doesn't mean they have to like it.

Quote
Also, I'm not ignoring the special pleadings of other counties. Just as I think Asheville is a better fit in the Western district, I think that counties like Burke and Caldwell would fit better with Catawba. They do, after all, share a metropolitan area.

Again, that is merely a repetition of your special pleading. If the special pleading of the folks from Asheville were the only consideration, then you just might have a case. But, the folks around Asheville have a right to their special pleadings, and, a right to have their special pleading being  debated as seriously as the pleadings from the folks in Asheville. Frankly, I don't think the rural folks around Asheville want Asheville in their district for the entire 360 degree perimeter. For them, the issue is whom is stuck with Buncombe. The legislature found a solution. You might not like that solution, but, for you to claim that there is only one way to look at it--your way--is pure bravo sierra.   
Logged

The real scandal in Washington is not the bribery, corruption, or sex. It is how poorly we are governed.
Miles
MilesC56
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 13022
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.26, S: 6.26

View Profile WWW
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2012, 01:03:45 am »
Ignore

Every county might very well have its own special pleading. The more rural counties in Western North Carolina would probably prefer a district not anchored in an urban county. Not all such pleadings can be honored.  Posting the special pleading that futher your position and ignoring those special pleadings that don't further your position belies a certain partisan intent, eh?

I really don't think that that claim holds water in this case. I'm almost certain that Asheville has anchored the Western North Carolina district since the founding of the state.

A statement that is utterly irrelevant to whether, or not, the folks in the rural counties would prefer an all rural district [something you would consider a "community of interest," whatever that means.] Just because they were stuck with Asheville in the past doesn't mean they have to like it.

Quote
Also, I'm not ignoring the special pleadings of other counties. Just as I think Asheville is a better fit in the Western district, I think that counties like Burke and Caldwell would fit better with Catawba. They do, after all, share a metropolitan area.

Again, that is merely a repetition of your special pleading. If the special pleading of the folks from Asheville were the only consideration, then you just might have a case. But, the folks around Asheville have a right to their special pleadings, and, a right to have their special pleading being  debated as seriously as the pleadings from the folks in Asheville. Frankly, I don't think the rural folks around Asheville want Asheville in their district for the entire 360 degree perimeter. For them, the issue is whom is stuck with Buncombe. The legislature found a solution. You might not like that solution, but, for you to claim that there is only one way to look at it--your way--is pure bravo sierra.  

How bout central Wilmington's "special pleading" to be with the rest of New Hanover county? Or Durham's "special pleading" not to get cracked 4 ways. Was it the "solution" for the Assembly to draw the lines there in that manner? If you answer yes, then you're just a Republican troll.

Moving Asheville out of CD11, after it had been in a district with the rural western counties for over 100 years, was a partisan sham and you know it.

Bob, have you ever actually been to Asheville /western NC or spent any decent amount of time there? You sure seem to know an awful lot about the region.
Logged

BigSkyBob
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2259
View Profile
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2012, 01:07:16 am »
Ignore


In the NC map I drew, the 1st district is 48.5% VAP black if I remember correctly-- more than enough to elect a black representative

Well, it would still retrogress out of 6 VRA-covered counties. Thats why the the Assembly had to redraw their original CD1 so that it complied with Section 5.


You are revising history here. The stated motivation for the revision is that the legislature thought that the Black Congressman in the first district had expressed his preference to gain  additional urban Black residents in Wake county rather than in Durham  county. When that Congressman publicly stated the opposite, he was accommodated in the second map.
Logged

The real scandal in Washington is not the bribery, corruption, or sex. It is how poorly we are governed.
Miles
MilesC56
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 13022
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.26, S: 6.26

View Profile WWW
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2012, 01:25:33 am »
Ignore


In the NC map I drew, the 1st district is 48.5% VAP black if I remember correctly-- more than enough to elect a black representative

Well, it would still retrogress out of 6 VRA-covered counties. Thats why the the Assembly had to redraw their original CD1 so that it complied with Section 5.


You are revising history here. The stated motivation for the revision is that the legislature thought that the Black Congressman in the first district had expressed his preference to gain  additional urban Black residents in Wake county rather than in Durham  county. When that Congressman publicly stated the opposite, he was accommodated in the second map.

As laid out here in this diary, there was still a good chance that the original CD01 would have been thrown out on Section 5 grounds anyway.

They could have drawn the district into Wake county while still avoiding retrogression in the eastern counties, ya know.

You can't accuse me of rewriting history any more than I can accuse you of being an amicable poster; Butterfield talked about the retrogression concerns that I mentioned in his statement on the original map, saying:

Quote
“The map that I’m looking at, it doesn’t protect those minority communities - Wayne, Craven, Beaufort, and Gates,” Butterfield said. “Those four counties are entitled to Section 5 protection, and their vote is going to be completely diluted if this plan is enacted.”
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 01:32:37 am by MilesC56 »Logged

BigSkyBob
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2259
View Profile
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2012, 01:35:47 am »
Ignore

Every county might very well have its own special pleading. The more rural counties in Western North Carolina would probably prefer a district not anchored in an urban county. Not all such pleadings can be honored.  Posting the special pleading that futher your position and ignoring those special pleadings that don't further your position belies a certain partisan intent, eh?

I really don't think that that claim holds water in this case. I'm almost certain that Asheville has anchored the Western North Carolina district since the founding of the state.

A statement that is utterly irrelevant to whether, or not, the folks in the rural counties would prefer an all rural district [something you would consider a "community of interest," whatever that means.] Just because they were stuck with Asheville in the past doesn't mean they have to like it.

Quote
Also, I'm not ignoring the special pleadings of other counties. Just as I think Asheville is a better fit in the Western district, I think that counties like Burke and Caldwell would fit better with Catawba. They do, after all, share a metropolitan area.

Again, that is merely a repetition of your special pleading. If the special pleading of the folks from Asheville were the only consideration, then you just might have a case. But, the folks around Asheville have a right to their special pleadings, and, a right to have their special pleading being  debated as seriously as the pleadings from the folks in Asheville. Frankly, I don't think the rural folks around Asheville want Asheville in their district for the entire 360 degree perimeter. For them, the issue is whom is stuck with Buncombe. The legislature found a solution. You might not like that solution, but, for you to claim that there is only one way to look at it--your way--is pure bravo sierra.  

How bout central Wilmington's "special pleading" to be with the rest of New Hanover county?

One of a myriad of special pleadings that wasn't honored. Again, there are a series of special pleading that are contradictory to one another. Honoring some special pleading means ignoring others.

Quote
Or Durham's "special pleading" not to get cracked 4 ways.

Blame Butterfield for that one. You can also say the previous redistricting that paired urban Greensboro with suburban Raleigh. Who chaired the redistricting committee that just happened to draw an open seat for that chairman?

Quote
Was it the "solution" for the Assembly to draw the lines there in that manner? If you answer yes, then you're just a Republican troll.

Moving Asheville out of CD11, after it had been in a district with the rural western counties for over 100 years, was a partisan sham and you know it.

1)  I don't dispute that the legislature chose which county in Western North Carolina to split based on considerations of what was best for the legislators that passed the bill. I never have. What I have objected to is special pleadings to the effect that the county lines of Buncombe were sancrosant. They simply are not. Every decade, redistricting splits counties that were previously intact. In some cases, and, in the vast majority of times in smaller counties, the folks in those counties don't like it. Historical arguments about county splits are piles of sophistry.

The legislature drew two districts in Western North Carolina with just two splits. There was no possible option to do it with one. Unlike South Central North Carolina, the lines in the Western two districts were clean. Arguing against the plan using country integrity arguments requires smuggling in a premise that larger counties have a greater right not to be split than smaller counties. It is that premise  that, rightly or wrongly, I reject.

2) Don't tell me what I know, and don't know. The last paragraph above is what I actually believe.

Quote
Bob, have you ever actually been to Asheville /western NC or spent any decent amount of time there? You sure seem to know an awful lot about the region.

None of your business. None of your business. Yes, I do.
Logged

The real scandal in Washington is not the bribery, corruption, or sex. It is how poorly we are governed.
BigSkyBob
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2259
View Profile
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2012, 01:53:56 am »
Ignore


In the NC map I drew, the 1st district is 48.5% VAP black if I remember correctly-- more than enough to elect a black representative

Well, it would still retrogress out of 6 VRA-covered counties. Thats why the the Assembly had to redraw their original CD1 so that it complied with Section 5.


You are revising history here. The stated motivation for the revision is that the legislature thought that the Black Congressman in the first district had expressed his preference to gain  additional urban Black residents in Wake county rather than in Durham  county. When that Congressman publicly stated the opposite, he was accommodated in the second map.

As laid out here in this diary, there was still a good chance that the original CD01 would have been thrown out on Section 5 grounds anyway.

I remember reading a diary to that effect just after the plan was passed.  Frankly, I wasn't impressed with its legal reasoning. Nor, is it really backed by any case law.

I am fairly confident any such challenge would have gone nowhere, and, I am fairly confident the legislature felt exactly the same way. However, the Congressman's objections allowed them to draw a map that was at least just as good as the first one, while striving to respect the wishes and desire of North Carolina's minority representatives. Some of North Carolina's White Democratic Congressmen didn't receive the same consideration. The revision was good politics, not a legal necessity. The diarist's objections to the Western district has gotten nowhere in court.

Quote
They could have drawn the district into Wake county while still avoiding retrogression in the eastern counties, ya know.

You can't accuse me of rewriting history any more than I can accuse you of being an amicable poster; Butterfield talked about the retrogression concerns that I mentioned in his statement on the original map, saying:

Quote
“The map that I’m looking at, it doesn’t protect those minority communities - Wayne, Craven, Beaufort, and Gates,” Butterfield said. “Those four counties are entitled to Section 5 protection, and their vote is going to be completely diluted if this plan is enacted.”

You are not disputing that the Republicans stated they thought Butterfield preferred expanding into Wake did you? Nor, are you disputing that they stated their reason for the revision was to accommodate him, are you?

You can speculate about what their real motivations were at length. I am citing their stated motivations. Fact tends to beat speculation every time.
Logged

The real scandal in Washington is not the bribery, corruption, or sex. It is how poorly we are governed.
Miles
MilesC56
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 13022
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.26, S: 6.26

View Profile WWW
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2012, 01:58:58 am »
Ignore

Bye, Bob. I took you off my ignore list for a while and you reminded why I had you on there on the first place; I really can't take you arrogance anymore.
Logged

Vazdul (Formerly Chairman of the Communist Party of Ontario)
Vazdul
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4410
United States


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2012, 02:07:59 am »
Ignore

One of a myriad of special pleadings that wasn't honored. Again, there are a series of special pleading that are contradictory to one another. Honoring some special pleading means ignoring others.

And honoring the special pleadings of Republican Party hacks in smoke-filled back rooms means ignoring the pleadings that actually make geographic and cultural sense.

Quote
Quote
Or Durham's "special pleading" not to get cracked 4 ways.

Blame Butterfield for that one. You can also say the previous redistricting that paired urban Greensboro with suburban Raleigh. Who chaired the redistricting committee that just happened to draw an open seat for that chairman?

Butterfield's district does not need Durham. But no argument on the other point.

Quote
Quote
Was it the "solution" for the Assembly to draw the lines there in that manner? If you answer yes, then you're just a Republican troll.

Moving Asheville out of CD11, after it had been in a district with the rural western counties for over 100 years, was a partisan sham and you know it.

1)  I don't dispute that the legislature chose which county in Western North Carolina to split based on considerations of what was best for the legislators that passed the bill. I never have. What I have objected to is special pleadings to the effect that the county lines of Buncombe were sancrosant. They simply are not. Every decade, redistricting splits counties that were previously intact. In some cases, and, in the vast majority of times in smaller counties, the folks in those counties don't like it. Historical arguments about county splits are piles of sophistry.

The legislature drew two districts in Western North Carolina with just two splits. There was no possible option to do it with one. Unlike South Central North Carolina, the lines in the Western two districts were clean. Arguing against the plan using country integrity arguments requires smuggling in a premise that larger counties have a greater right not to be split than smaller counties. It is that premise  that, rightly or wrongly, I reject.

I'm not arguing so much that Buncombe county should not be the county that is split, rather that cities that form the commercial hub of a region should go in a district based in that region whenever it is feasible.

Quote
2) Don't tell me what I know, and don't know. The last paragraph above is what I actually believe.

Quote
Bob, have you ever actually been to Asheville /western NC or spent any decent amount of time there? You sure seem to know an awful lot about the region.

None of your business. None of your business. Yes, I do.
And now I remember why I have you on ignore...
Logged

Seriously, it was time to change back to the real avatar.
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines