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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: Power to Parents Act (Failed)  (Read 2635 times)
Napoleon
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« Reply #100 on: July 30, 2012, 01:26:23 pm »
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I have some concerns with this amendment.  If fewer low-income students are attending the better schools, then not only would they be deprived of the better education, but student diversity would be lower in these schools.

I don't have a very favorable opinion on this.

Senator, have you considered that the variation in school performance within individual districts is nearly nonexistent?
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« Reply #101 on: July 30, 2012, 01:45:43 pm »
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I have some concerns with this amendment.  If fewer low-income students are attending the better schools, then not only would they be deprived of the better education, but student diversity would be lower in these schools.

I don't have a very favorable opinion on this.

Senator, have you considered that the variation in school performance within individual districts is nearly nonexistent?

Would you provide a link that shows this information?
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #102 on: August 01, 2012, 11:46:59 am »
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Are we going somewhere with this?


The amendment is still in limbo without a sponsor feedback.
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President John Hay
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« Reply #103 on: August 01, 2012, 12:14:04 pm »
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I'm going to put it as unfriendly but haven't decided whether or not I will vote for it yet... I'd like to see the President respond to Senator Scott
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Napoleon
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« Reply #104 on: August 01, 2012, 08:22:22 pm »
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Here are some maps you can look at: http://schoolperformancemaps.com/

As you can see, schools in the same areas perform very similarly. The major outlier would be Florida, which has each county functioning as a school district. But if you're expecting the federal government to send buses from inner city Miami to any of many wealthier exurbs, well, sorry, we just can't afford that. I also question whether parents would like to stick their children on a bus to take them twenty miles away from home everyday instead of keeping them in their communities with their friends and neighbors.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 08:25:29 pm by President Napoleon »Logged

When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
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« Reply #105 on: August 01, 2012, 08:35:49 pm »
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Napoleon- you've mentioned a few times that you did something similar in the Northeast... how is what you did in the Northeast different from this bill in substance beyond the fact the one is regional and one is national? Is it simply the stipend for transportation?
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Napoleon
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« Reply #106 on: August 01, 2012, 08:38:28 pm »
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Napoleon- you've mentioned a few times that you did something similar in the Northeast... how is what you did in the Northeast different from this bill in substance beyond the fact the one is regional and one is national? Is it simply the stipend for transportation?

I didn't actually do it- that was Andrew when he was Governor. The law is also a bit different.

Quote from: Public School Choice Act of 2008
1. The government of the Northeast shall allow students of age to be enrolled in primary and secondary public schools in the Northeast region to attend public schools other than those in their own school district.
2. Students in the Northeast may attend any school within a 10-mile radius of the residence of that student in counties designated as urban, and within a 30-mile radius in counties designated as rural.

I think the Public School Choice Act is a good law. But as you know, I believe these policies are best left up to regional governments and local school districts. My cousin is a teacher and when I asked her what she thought the sort of policy originally proposed would do in real life, she replied that it would be unmanageable chaos. We absolutely cannot afford to pay for this sort of massive scale school transportation, especially when you match it up with the benefits enacting the policy would provide.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 08:41:20 pm by President Napoleon »Logged

When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
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« Reply #107 on: August 01, 2012, 08:40:57 pm »
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How would you feel about an amendment to make this bill the same as the Northeast bill- simply on a national level?
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Napoleon
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« Reply #108 on: August 01, 2012, 08:42:46 pm »
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How would you feel about an amendment to make this bill the same as the Northeast bill- simply on a national level?

I would consider it unconstitutional. Sad

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No Law requiring any action to be taken or to be not taken by a Region shall be passed, except to preserve the rights of the Senate or of the People enumerated under the Constitution.

I think you have misunderstood me throughout this debate. I've really thought about all the angles that could be taken here, I just couldn't find any that would work. It isn't that I didn't want to. I also felt it better to be honest when I plan on vetoing something because we have other things to debate, so I didn't mean for you to take it as me being rude. For example, how long should a good Senate sit on a resolution for authorizing force on Iran? Even if I disagree with that too I feel like you proposed it because you felt there was a sense of urgency. That's the only reason why I suggested tabling this bill, not because I wanted to "have my way".
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 08:46:28 pm by President Napoleon »Logged

When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
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« Reply #109 on: August 01, 2012, 08:45:20 pm »
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How so... you mentioned in your press conference you are working on a national university bill
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Napoleon
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« Reply #110 on: August 01, 2012, 08:47:15 pm »
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How so... you mentioned in your press conference you are working on a national university bill

Please read my edited post above.
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When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
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« Reply #111 on: August 01, 2012, 10:51:53 pm »
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How about only providing transportation to families below 133% of the poverty line? I will not support a bill where we provide transportation to anyone who wants to send their kids to a far away school. I also think just passing the bill without any transportation support would create an even greater problem in lower income schools with even greater concentration of poverty in those schools since those who can afford it would transport their kids to another school. It would basically help those who can't afford to buy a house or rent in a good school district but still have the resources to transport their kids across town. It won't help the real poor which I think is the intent of this bill.
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« Reply #112 on: August 01, 2012, 10:57:40 pm »
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Or we could do something similar to the Northeast law and force the regions to adopt it by threatening to take away their healthcare money?
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« Reply #113 on: August 01, 2012, 11:09:22 pm »
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How would you feel about an amendment to make this bill the same as the Northeast bill- simply on a national level?

I would consider it unconstitutional. Sad

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No Law requiring any action to be taken or to be not taken by a Region shall be passed, except to preserve the rights of the Senate or of the People enumerated under the Constitution.

I think you have misunderstood me throughout this debate. I've really thought about all the angles that could be taken here, I just couldn't find any that would work. It isn't that I didn't want to. I also felt it better to be honest when I plan on vetoing something because we have other things to debate, so I didn't mean for you to take it as me being rude. For example, how long should a good Senate sit on a resolution for authorizing force on Iran? Even if I disagree with that too I feel like you proposed it because you felt there was a sense of urgency. That's the only reason why I suggested tabling this bill, not because I wanted to "have my way".
I respect that point of view and appreciate that you took the time to clear this up....

As for the Constitutional aspect- I don't believe this bill requires action by the regions as it is setting a national policy... I believe Sban's second statement would violate that clause moreso. However- I agree with Sbane's first statement...we need to ensure that the poorest students are able to benefit most as there is a correlation between poverty and lack of quality education- this as you know creates a vicious cycle of continued poverty
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« Reply #114 on: August 02, 2012, 02:31:24 am »
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How about only providing transportation to families below 133% of the poverty line? I will not support a bill where we provide transportation to anyone who wants to send their kids to a far away school.

It sounds good in theory, but I challenge you to explain how in the world that would work. Cab drivers? I mean...

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I also think just passing the bill without any transportation support would create an even greater problem in lower income schools with even greater concentration of poverty in those schools since those who can afford it would transport their kids to another school.

How many parents would actually do this? You'll be traveling awfully far from home from Brownsville, Brooklyn or East Los Angeles before getting to a decent public school. Those who can afford it have already been placed in private schools anyway.

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It would basically help those who can't afford to buy a house or rent in a good school district but still have the resources to transport their kids across town. It won't help the real poor which I think is the intent of this bill.

They can only choose from the schools within that district under this plan (not that I believe the federal government can or should force a change like this).

Or we could do something similar to the Northeast law and force the regions to adopt it by threatening to take away their healthcare money?

And why would we want to do that?? If I were a regional Governor or school board member I would be pretty peeved to discover that my community wouldn't get health care funding unless they start paying for children to get transported to a farther failing public school instead of the one down the street from them.

As for the Constitutional aspect- I don't believe this bill requires action by the regions as it is setting a national policy... I believe Sban's second statement would violate that clause moreso.

That isn't my experience with the clause. Besides, K-12 education is quite clearly the domain of the regions and forcing a policy like this to be adopted would be found by a reasonable Court to be in violation of that. Senator Sbane's suggestion would make it constitutional, because at that point they aren't forced to make the change, but it would be a textbook example of using a nuclear bomb to kill a housefly.

However- I agree with Sbane's first statement...we need to ensure that the poorest students are able to benefit most as there is a correlation between poverty and lack of quality education- this as you know creates a vicious cycle of continued poverty

Well yeah...but why? Will this change their school quality? Not really. Will this improve their family life (the biggest problem, I would think)? Not at all. The real problem, of course, is that regions seem to still fund education through property taxes for the most part. I don't even think changing that would be very helpful though. I sympathize with the intent of this policy but have no faith in its ability to actually fulfill that goal.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 02:51:24 am by President Napoleon »Logged

When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
Sbane
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« Reply #115 on: August 02, 2012, 03:59:07 am »
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How about only providing transportation to families below 133% of the poverty line? I will not support a bill where we provide transportation to anyone who wants to send their kids to a far away school.

It sounds good in theory, but I challenge you to explain how in the world that would work. Cab drivers? I mean...

I was thinking more of vouchers rather than sending cab drivers around to pick up kids lol. Obviously it won't be as convenient as having the government pick the kids up from near their home but we can provide resources to the parents so they can arrange for another method of transportation. The lack of proper public transit will be a problem in many areas though.....

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I also think just passing the bill without any transportation support would create an even greater problem in lower income schools with even greater concentration of poverty in those schools since those who can afford it would transport their kids to another school.

How many parents would actually do this? You'll be traveling awfully far from home from Brownsville, Brooklyn or East Los Angeles before getting to a decent public school. Those who can afford it have already been placed in private schools anyway.

I think your concerns are more valid in more rural areas with widespread poverty as opposed to urban areas with concentrations of poverty. At least in the case of East Los Angeles, there are many good school districts close by like Monterey Park and Alhambra to a certain extent. Temple City and Arcadia are exceptional. All within about a 30 minute drive. But yeah, many parents wouldn't take you up on the offer even if you give them gas money and some more.

It would basically help those who can't afford to buy a house or rent in a good school district but still have the resources to transport their kids across town. It won't help the real poor which I think is the intent of this bill.

They can only choose from the schools within that district under this plan (not that I believe the federal government can or should force a change like this).

Yes, which is why I propose we do something like the Northeast and let them attend any public school of their choice regardless of district. As for taking away healthcare funding, that is how the federal government makes the states do things in real life. Roberts of course put some limits on that, but Ebowed and Opebo might not see it the same way. Wink

« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 04:03:30 am by Senator Sbane »Logged
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« Reply #116 on: August 02, 2012, 10:12:37 am »
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Ah, yes. I slightly remember that bill from the Northeast. Back in the good ol days. I need to look back at it though.. for some reason I feel like I threatened to veto that one.
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« Reply #117 on: August 02, 2012, 10:40:49 am »
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I appreciate the debate going on but am having trouble following.... if this impedes the regions, how would a universal health care bill not do so? I'm not sure why this bill is different then others that have been passed here...

Also- Sbane would you feel comfortable with an amendment holding something other then health care in the balance for the regions?
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Napoleon
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« Reply #118 on: August 02, 2012, 10:46:52 am »
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I appreciate the debate going on but am having trouble following.... if this impedes the regions, how would a universal health care bill not do so? I'm not sure why this bill is different then others that have been passed here...

Also- Sbane would you feel comfortable with an amendment holding something other then health care in the balance for the regions?

This is the federal government trying to force the regions to do what the fed wants with regional dollars. Health care uses federal dollars and didn't force other regional or local governments to change their policies.
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When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
President John Hay
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« Reply #119 on: August 02, 2012, 10:49:34 am »
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I appreciate the debate going on but am having trouble following.... if this impedes the regions, how would a universal health care bill not do so? I'm not sure why this bill is different then others that have been passed here...

Also- Sbane would you feel comfortable with an amendment holding something other then health care in the balance for the regions?

This is the federal government trying to force the regions to do what the fed wants with regional dollars. Health care uses federal dollars and didn't force other regional or local governments to change their policies.
This bill sets a national policy- just like every other bill before this body does. Federal dollars come from citizens who live in regions as this bill's funding would... I don't see the difference. What about an illegal immigration amnesty bill or something along those lines- I am sure something like that or the Dream Act has passed thru here...
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« Reply #120 on: August 02, 2012, 10:55:49 am »
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You really can't see the difference?
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When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
Sbane
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« Reply #121 on: August 02, 2012, 11:00:11 am »
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I appreciate the debate going on but am having trouble following.... if this impedes the regions, how would a universal health care bill not do so? I'm not sure why this bill is different then others that have been passed here...

Also- Sbane would you feel comfortable with an amendment holding something other then health care in the balance for the regions?

Yes we can use something else as the carrot.

Also Napolean, isn't the transportation money coming from the Feds? No one is forcing the regions to spend money. We should only ensure they open their schools to enrollment regardless of location. The Northeast of course wouldn't even be impacted.
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« Reply #122 on: August 02, 2012, 11:00:39 am »
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You really can't see the difference?
I see the examples we are listing as setting a national policy- as this bill aims to do. A bill which infringes on regional rights would be mandating a regional financial contribution for this... but that isn't being done
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« Reply #123 on: August 02, 2012, 11:17:25 am »
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You really can't see the difference?
I see the examples we are listing as setting a national policy- as this bill aims to do. A bill which infringes on regional rights would be mandating a regional financial contribution for this... but that isn't being done

Oh this will certainly cost regions and school districts quite a bit of money Senator. Think about the impact. This will even put a burden on regions like the Northeast that already allow this.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 11:20:15 am by President Napoleon »Logged

When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
Sbane
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« Reply #124 on: August 02, 2012, 11:20:01 am »
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How will it cost regions money?
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