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Author Topic: Let's discuss Mormonism.  (Read 13136 times)
IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble
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« Reply #75 on: August 10, 2012, 02:01:16 pm »
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Since you mentioned personal reasons for believing, what are they? What to you makes the claims of the Mormon religion superior to the claims of other religions?
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« Reply #76 on: August 10, 2012, 02:10:54 pm »
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How common are "Jack Mormons," and do you consider yourself one as a fairly liberal person?

I'd say that Jack Mormons are a little less than a million of the church's recorded 14 million (which is probably more like 9 or 10 million, but that's another issue). I don't know where they usually congregate, but if I had to take a guess, it'd be Salt Lake City. It's close enough to the larger portion of Mormondom that many feel like they can't cut off ties altogether, but it's insulated in it's own culture enough that a member could feel comfortable going inactive.

They're not talked about much because these days most inactive Mormons simply cut off all ties with the church. That authoritarian "trust us" streak tends to hinder any culture of "questioning, but still devout" Mormons. Again, in comparison to Catholicism, it's harder to be a secular Mormon than a secular Catholic.

Politics doesn't usually have anything to do with being a Jack Mormon or not (though specific political actions like Prop 8 do), and especially in Salt Lake City, there's a small population of fully-devout liberal Mormons who take inspiration from previous prophets saying things that could be considered liberal (like an anti-war quote or a "take care of the impoverished" quote). Personally, I feel my Mormonism fuels my liberal politics, rather than the usual route of Mormonism fueling conservative politics (as a side note, I deeply despise Glenn Beck for his promotion of rabidly conservative Mormonism).

It's my belief that taking care of the poor in an effective way is a progressive issue, and as such, with all the BoM scriptures talking about helping the poor (and condemning the rich who don't), I feel that at least in my experience, progressive politics fits my view of Mormonism.
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« Reply #77 on: August 10, 2012, 03:25:47 pm »
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Do you value Smith/Young over Jesus?
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« Reply #78 on: August 10, 2012, 11:33:08 pm »
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Since you mentioned personal reasons for believing, what are they? What to you makes the claims of the Mormon religion superior to the claims of other religions?

I have several reasons, so I'll put them in a list.

1) It feels good. Basically, when I follow church doctrines (like praying and silently calling upon God for help) I feel calm, collected, and compassionate, and I like that feeling.
2) I've tried being agnostic (though secretly so) when I was about 12-14. Didn't work; I felt bitter and unhappy all the time, and I felt inadequate. Skip to about 16 with a new outlook on my faith and I feel great and self-confident.
3) The afterlife doctrine; I feel that the afterlife system of the mainstream LDS Church is incredibly fair; everybody gets something better than they have now (unless they literally defy God after they have clearly seen or felt his influence), and the level you get to is a spiritual meritocracy.
4) Mormon culture is what I've been raised in and the only culture I've ever known, so I feel that I should stay in it, despite its flaws.
5) Spite: If I can remain a believing Mormon in good standing with my politics, then I spite the religious right, and I spite Glenn Beck by my faith. They'll never know, but I get to feel satisfied in defying their (and others) expectations. Similarly, my aggressively atheist dad (who curses at and mocks religion, especially the LDS Church whenever he can) seems to be made bitter by his dislike of the Church, so I stay within the Church to prove him wrong.
6) Even though the LDS community tends to be close-minded politically, it's very loving and would give the shirt off its back to me in an instant. Fellow Mormons help each other, and I love that fact about the church.
7) With the rise of alternative LDS thought on the net, I can discuss any doubts or alternative interpretations I have with no judgment or mockery from my fellow Mormons. I can explore the diversity of thought and enjoy the interesting viewpoints people have.
8 ) I want to be a part of LDS history in my own way. I want to be my individual story in the larger narrative of Mormonism.
9) Whether the details are right or not, whether the circumstances in the Book of Mormon could ever happen or not, I do like the narrative it builds, and the stories it weaves. And the lessons it teaches are good ones; stuff like Mosiah chapter 4 goes on and on about helping the poor and not being judgmental of them, for example.
10) Because Mormon history is interesting, and being a member of the church makes me feel like I have a stake in the conflicts throughout it. Kind of like how Catholics can feel connected to the early struggles of Catholic leaders.

Do you value Smith/Young over Jesus?

No, not at all. In fact, Brigham Young specifically taught that "Joseph Smith has done more save Jesus only for the salvation of man than any other men have done." And we get that quote regularly taught at church, so we understand that Brigham Young thought himself inferior to Smith, who himself is inferior to Jesus. And personally, I know of both Smith and Young's flaws, and in Young's particular case, will happily call him out on it (seriously the "blacks can't have the priesthood" thing was a jerk move by Young who got offended by what would be an uppity black preacher in the lingo of that time; Smith ordained the few black men who joined the church under his tenure).

I still see both men as prophets, but I acknowledge that they're flawed. Standard Mormonism whitewashes them a lot (so much that we only really get taught about maybe a few months of Young's 30 year tenure), but it is understood that both men were flawed.


I gotta say though, I'm surprised that you guys aren't asking me about my view of specific Mormons in American politics, like Orrin Hatch or whatever.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 11:19:01 am by PioneerProgress »Logged
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« Reply #79 on: August 11, 2012, 05:25:03 am »
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Why, if Mormonism is the true faith, did Jesus not reveal all the teachings of Mormonism when he had the unique opportunity to do so while being on earth and so basically misled all Christians up to the 19th century by withholding crucial aspects of Mormon doctrine from them?
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« Reply #80 on: August 11, 2012, 11:22:04 am »
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Why, if Mormonism is the true faith, did Jesus not reveal all the teachings of Mormonism when he had the unique opportunity to do so while being on earth and so basically misled all Christians up to the 19th century by withholding crucial aspects of Mormon doctrine from them?

He did, but after He left, nobody listened, and then the Great Apostasy happened.
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IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble
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« Reply #81 on: August 11, 2012, 05:32:57 pm »
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Since you mentioned personal reasons for believing, what are they? What to you makes the claims of the Mormon religion superior to the claims of other religions?

I have several reasons, so I'll put them in a list.

1) It feels good. Basically, when I follow church doctrines (like praying and silently calling upon God for help) I feel calm, collected, and compassionate, and I like that feeling.
2) I've tried being agnostic (though secretly so) when I was about 12-14. Didn't work; I felt bitter and unhappy all the time, and I felt inadequate. Skip to about 16 with a new outlook on my faith and I feel great and self-confident.
3) The afterlife doctrine; I feel that the afterlife system of the mainstream LDS Church is incredibly fair; everybody gets something better than they have now (unless they literally defy God after they have clearly seen or felt his influence), and the level you get to is a spiritual meritocracy.
4) Mormon culture is what I've been raised in and the only culture I've ever known, so I feel that I should stay in it, despite its flaws.
5) Spite: If I can remain a believing Mormon in good standing with my politics, then I spite the religious right, and I spite Glenn Beck by my faith. They'll never know, but I get to feel satisfied in defying their (and others) expectations. Similarly, my aggressively atheist dad (who curses at and mocks religion, especially the LDS Church whenever he can) seems to be made bitter by his dislike of the Church, so I stay within the Church to prove him wrong.
6) Even though the LDS community tends to be close-minded politically, it's very loving and would give the shirt off its back to me in an instant. Fellow Mormons help each other, and I love that fact about the church.
7) With the rise of alternative LDS thought on the net, I can discuss any doubts or alternative interpretations I have with no judgment or mockery from my fellow Mormons. I can explore the diversity of thought and enjoy the interesting viewpoints people have.
8 ) I want to be a part of LDS history in my own way. I want to be my individual story in the larger narrative of Mormonism.
9) Whether the details are right or not, whether the circumstances in the Book of Mormon could ever happen or not, I do like the narrative it builds, and the stories it weaves. And the lessons it teaches are good ones; stuff like Mosiah chapter 4 goes on and on about helping the poor and not being judgmental of them, for example.
10) Because Mormon history is interesting, and being a member of the church makes me feel like I have a stake in the conflicts throughout it. Kind of like how Catholics can feel connected to the early struggles of Catholic leaders.

Ok, I have one more question that I find pertinent especially in light of your answer for #9 - do you care whether or not your beliefs are actually true?
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« Reply #82 on: August 12, 2012, 01:44:55 am »
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Were there any prophets between the time of the New Testament and Joseph Smith?
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« Reply #83 on: August 12, 2012, 02:03:09 am »
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Were there any prophets between the time of the New Testament and Joseph Smith?

If not, why not?
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« Reply #84 on: August 12, 2012, 02:24:49 am »
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Is it true that the previous LDS President basically prohibited involvement in "the scene" (which of course he wasn't familiar with no doubt, but I do believe he said something along the lines of that Mormons should not be involved with punk music)? I remember vaguely hearing something about that.

Worth nothing I have never met a Mormon in the scene, just as I've never met a real Catholic in my 10+ years in it, even amongst open Christians (now granted I don't go polling people about their religion at shows or anything but every single person I've ever heard of in the scene that was raised Catholic or Mormon [obviously the former are far more common] has either cut off from them and gone totally non-religious, went to another much more loosely organized form of Christianity, or didn't join another church at all, but still identified as simply Christian but not as Catholic or Mormon.)
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« Reply #85 on: August 12, 2012, 02:58:13 am »
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BRTD always cuts straight to the important issues.
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« Reply #86 on: August 12, 2012, 06:12:54 pm »
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Ok, I have one more question that I find pertinent especially in light of your answer for #9 - do you care whether or not your beliefs are actually true?

I do; I personally believe in my faith, and I see the doctrines as truthful. I just don't dwell overly much on improbability of the events of the Book of Mormon (though again, I do believe in it; like I've said, science is constantly improving, alternate interpretations of scripture are always popping up, so I have hope in the possibility of the Book of Mormon).

I tend to care more about the use of the doctrine and the lessons that it teaches (like the constant condemnation of wealth inequality in the BoM, and the musings on perfection in the Pearl of Great Price).

Were there any prophets between the time of the New Testament and Joseph Smith?

If not, why not?

There were not, but the last two LDS prophets have implied that religiously significant people throughout post-Jesus history have been inspired by God (I think Joan of Arc and Muhammad were the most surprising implications that they pointed out), while not being actual prophets.

The reason that there were no actual prophets was that the priesthood had been lost after the last of the Apostles died (besides John the Apostle and the Three Nephites, but they were commanded to basically just watch the world), and since Jesus wasn't coming back for a while (and neither were any of the Apostles), no priesthood meant no prophets.

As a side note, I'm an outlier, but I feel an affinity with Muslims, as I see our faiths having some similarities.

Is it true that the previous LDS President basically prohibited involvement in "the scene" (which of course he wasn't familiar with no doubt, but I do believe he said something along the lines of that Mormons should not be involved with punk music)? I remember vaguely hearing something about that.

Worth nothing I have never met a Mormon in the scene, just as I've never met a real Catholic in my 10+ years in it, even amongst open Christians (now granted I don't go polling people about their religion at shows or anything but every single person I've ever heard of in the scene that was raised Catholic or Mormon [obviously the former are far more common] has either cut off from them and gone totally non-religious, went to another much more loosely organized form of Christianity, or didn't join another church at all, but still identified as simply Christian but not as Catholic or Mormon.)

If "the scene" you mean drugs and all that, then no, we aren't allowed to be a part of it and LDS leaders strongly discourage it.

If you just mean music, they tend to discourage any music that teaches "negative" themes like violence or whatnot, but it's not strongly enforced and if you don't try and get church-sponsored functions to play your music, you're fine. Heck, I'm openly a Mormon metalhead (though I dislike the sound of death metal), and I've had no problems with my musical taste. It does help that I like "heroic metal" (like some Blind Guardian songs) and Christian power metal. Sadly though, there is no such thing as specifically Mormon metal.
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« Reply #87 on: August 13, 2012, 11:30:12 pm »
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What did Joseph Smith think of slavery?
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« Reply #88 on: August 14, 2012, 10:58:07 am »
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What did Joseph Smith think of slavery?

That's a good question, and it even fits into another issue. See, both Missouri and Illinois had large populations of Southerners back in Joseph Smith's time. Very pro-slavery, and from I understand, experimenting with keeping slaves in those states. Naturally, they despised any attempt to weaken the institution of slavery, and saw all Yankees and Englishman as potential abolitionists. Since Yankees and the English were 99% of the LDS Church at that time, you can probably figure out what Illinois and Missouri thought of Smith.

Smith didn't exactly help matters when he insisted on teaching former slaves, though he insisted that he wouldn't teach actual slaves without the consent of their masters. Interestingly enough, a guy named Elijah Abel (an escaped slave) was the first black man who received the LDS priesthood, and he and his descendants even kept it after Brigham Young threw a hissy fit and banned blacks from the priesthood.

Anyway, a large portion of the animosity between the Mormons and non-Mormons was because the non-Mormons were convinced that Smith would slowly take over the state by conversion, and use converted slaves and Native Americans to conquer any dissidents. Yes, it was also because of actions taken by members of the church, but looking through public statements by anti-Mormon figures at that time, they love to talk about "he will baptize the Negros and slaughter us in our beds" (paraphrasing, of course).

Smith's own personal beliefs tended to differ on slavery; Wikipedia says he published a pro-slavery essay in 1836, but it seems his beliefs changed soon after that, because that same year, he baptized and gave the priesthood to Eljiah Abel. He does get a scripture in which it basically says "don't interfere with the bondsmen (slaves) or their masters" but judging from his helping escaped slaves and baptizing freemen and other former slaves, he figured that scripture was of less importance.

Flash forward to 1844 and Joseph Smith's presidential campaign (which was basically a smokescreen to get the attention and thus protection of federal authorities for his church), and one of Smith's platforms is the complete abolition of slavery by 1850, and the compensation of slaveholders through selling public lands. Since as previously mentioned, Illinois had a large pro-slavery population, you can guess their reaction. The anti-Mormon militias grow in power,  the anti-Mormon publications start literally calling for the Mormons to be opposed "with musket and ball", and before you know, Smith panics and orders the destruction of one of the anti-Mormon publications. He is soon imprisoned and killed, and there's a period of leaderlessness in the church, until Brigham Young (who is notably quieter on the subject of slavery) takes over the majority of the Mormons.
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« Reply #89 on: August 17, 2012, 03:27:06 pm »
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Are Mormons outside of Utah as strongly Republican as they are in Utah (and Idaho, for that matter)? Tongue
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« Reply #90 on: August 17, 2012, 04:49:27 pm »
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Are Mormons outside of Utah as strongly Republican as they are in Utah (and Idaho, for that matter)? Tongue

Well, the two Nevada Mormons who immediately come to mind for me at least are Harry Reid and Brandon Flowers, and then you have the mostly but not exclusively Democratic Udalls scattered across the West...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are as many Democratic as Republican Mormon Senators right now, aren't there?
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« Reply #91 on: August 18, 2012, 09:28:17 am »
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Are Mormons outside of Utah as strongly Republican as they are in Utah (and Idaho, for that matter)? Tongue

Non-Utah Mormons tend to be a bit more moderate than Utah Mormons; Mitt Romney as Governor is a pretty good indicator of that moderate streak. In fact, I would say that most non-Utah Mormons are moderate Republicans, of the Olympia Snowe variety. Still strongly Republican, but not jerks about it (besides California Mormons, who tend to be the kind of people who would have supported Prop 8 without the LDS Church endorsing it). It's mostly a collection of factors and powerful figures (Ezra Taft Benson, Cleon Skousen, Glenn Beck, etc) that cause Utah Mormons to be so solidly right-wing Republicans.

The more interesting subject is that of non-American Mormons. International Mormons tend to be in the distinct mainstream, and even tend to the left on economic issues. I wish I could find statistics, (this is the closest thing I could find, and it's about American Mormons) but with Romney in the American presidential race this year, non-American Mormon political statistics are difficult to look for. But I can tell you that Mexican Mormons have a distinct leftist economic streak, especially when compared to American Mormons. This may be because of the legacy of Emilio Zapata and the Mexican Mormon tradition that Zapata was similar to Helaman, a notable Book of Mormon character.

Are Mormons outside of Utah as strongly Republican as they are in Utah (and Idaho, for that matter)? Tongue

Well, the two Nevada Mormons who immediately come to mind for me at least are Harry Reid and Brandon Flowers, and then you have the mostly but not exclusively Democratic Udalls scattered across the West...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are as many Democratic as Republican Mormon Senators right now, aren't there?

For Mormon Democrats, there's currently just Harry Reid and Tom Udall (Mark Udall has never been a practicing Mormon, as his father Mo did not raise him in the LDS Faith). On the Representative side, it's just as depressing: Jim Matheson of Utah (who I dislike vehemently and see as no different from a Republican), and non-voting Eni Faleomavaega from American Samoa. If you count Community of Christ as "Mormon", then Leonard Boswell of Iowa is a Mormon Democrat.

On the Republican side, there's Dean Heller, Mike Crapo, Orrin Hatch, and Mike Lee. Former Senator Gordon Smith of Oregon was a Mormon Republican as well, though a somewhat moderate one. LDS Congressional GOPers are plentiful: Rob Bishop and Jason Chaffetz of Utah, Howard McKeon and Wally Herger of California, Jeff Flake from Arizona (he'll probably become Senator as well), Raul Labrador and Mike Simpson of Idaho.

As a side note, the Mormon online blogosphere (nicknamed the "bloggernacle") is much more liberal than most American Mormons. A few celebrity Mormons are moderate-to-liberal Democrats as well; Ken Jennings (who I think should run for office) is a Democrat, for example. A few members of the LDS leadership (General Authority Larry EchoHawk, and Church Historian Marlin K Jensen and his successor Stephen H Snow, as well as 3-4 Apostles), are  Democrats, but in all but EchoHawk's case, it seems to be a matter of habit rather than a political inclination.

Outside the United States, I can only use Wikipedia's list for LDS politicians. Besides the random Japanese and South Korean LDS politicians, it doesn't seem too surprising. Latin America, the Polynesian nations, and Canada+Scotland have long been areas of strong conversion rates for the LDS Church. Heck, apparently a Tongan princess even converted to Mormonism!

Oh, and the notable liberal political cartoonist pat Bagley used to be Mormon until Prop 8, and still considers himself a "cultural Mormon". So there's that.

Also, every single politician running for Congressional or statewide office in Utah this year is Mormon, whether Republican or Democrat.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 09:34:25 am by PioneerProgress »Logged
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« Reply #92 on: August 19, 2012, 02:59:10 pm »
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What's your opinion of the early 20th century practice of deliberately having LDS leaders in different parts of Utah endorse different candidates so the state could be a swing state and receive more attention?
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« Reply #93 on: August 19, 2012, 04:19:15 pm »
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What's your opinion of the early 20th century practice of deliberately having LDS leaders in different parts of Utah endorse different candidates so the state could be a swing state and receive more attention?

They not only did that, but they literally split congregations down the aisle with regards to political party. They literally said that "okay left side, you're Democrat, and right side you're Republican". Quite a few Utah political families are members of their political party because of that.

But anyway, it seems to me that at first, it was desperately needed; the very good book "Utah: A People's History" (despite the name, it's mostly political neutral and in fact ends its history somewhere in the Reagan years) points out that one of the unspoken conditions given by the Feds for Utah to become a state was to ensure that it wouldn't be a safe state for either party (at the time it was a Democratic territory, as the Republicans were the ones who temporarily dissolved the church and imprisoned church leaders). It makes sense; if not transformed into a swing state, whatever direction Utah took would also be the course that the large Mormon populations in the neighboring states would take. Unfortunately, that hasn't been a strategy that's worked over the years.

It's a total violation of church and state, and once the IRS started getting aggressive about that sort of thing, the LDS Church rightfully stopped, but I don't think at the time it was out of the ordinary. Utah was a fairly poor and rural state that had a much maligned religious minority as it's majority religion (just look at the Reed Smoot hearings and the social alienation that Smoot faced until Theodore Roosevelt came along), so I think it was a useful strategy to ensure Utah was not ignored.

Interestingly enough, this abnormal endorsement practice led Utah to reject Prohibition until a prophet-preferred gubernatorial candidate took power (again, Utah: A People's History has a good account about this), which had the unique circumstance of the anti-alcohol LDS Church keeping Utah a "wet" state after many more "wet" states had embraced Prohibition.
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« Reply #94 on: August 23, 2012, 08:02:36 am »
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Are Mormons outside of Utah as strongly Republican as they are in Utah (and Idaho, for that matter)? Tongue

Well, the two Nevada Mormons who immediately come to mind for me at least are Harry Reid and Brandon Flowers, and then you have the mostly but not exclusively Democratic Udalls scattered across the West...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are as many Democratic as Republican Mormon Senators right now, aren't there?

For Mormon Democrats, there's currently just Harry Reid and Tom Udall (Mark Udall has never been a practicing Mormon, as his father Mo did not raise him in the LDS Faith). On the Representative side, it's just as depressing: Jim Matheson of Utah (who I dislike vehemently and see as no different from a Republican), and non-voting Eni Faleomavaega from American Samoa. If you count Community of Christ as "Mormon", then Leonard Boswell of Iowa is a Mormon Democrat.

On the Republican side, there's Dean Heller, Mike Crapo, Orrin Hatch, and Mike Lee. Former Senator Gordon Smith of Oregon was a Mormon Republican as well, though a somewhat moderate one. LDS Congressional GOPers are plentiful: Rob Bishop and Jason Chaffetz of Utah, Howard McKeon and Wally Herger of California, Jeff Flake from Arizona (he'll probably become Senator as well), Raul Labrador and Mike Simpson of Idaho.

I wasn't aware that Dean Heller was a Mormon, and I wasn't aware that Mark Udall wasn't. So Nevada, like Utah, has two Mormon Senators. Interesting.

Quote
As a side note, the Mormon online blogosphere (nicknamed the "bloggernacle") is much more liberal than most American Mormons. A few celebrity Mormons are moderate-to-liberal Democrats as well; Ken Jennings (who I think should run for office) is a Democrat, for example. A few members of the LDS leadership (General Authority Larry EchoHawk, and Church Historian Marlin K Jensen and his successor Stephen H Snow, as well as 3-4 Apostles), are  Democrats, but in all but EchoHawk's case, it seems to be a matter of habit rather than a political inclination.

Wasn't EchoHawk in the Obama administration at some point?
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« Reply #95 on: August 23, 2012, 07:55:14 pm »
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Are Mormons outside of Utah as strongly Republican as they are in Utah (and Idaho, for that matter)? Tongue

Well, the two Nevada Mormons who immediately come to mind for me at least are Harry Reid and Brandon Flowers, and then you have the mostly but not exclusively Democratic Udalls scattered across the West...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are as many Democratic as Republican Mormon Senators right now, aren't there?

For Mormon Democrats, there's currently just Harry Reid and Tom Udall (Mark Udall has never been a practicing Mormon, as his father Mo did not raise him in the LDS Faith). On the Representative side, it's just as depressing: Jim Matheson of Utah (who I dislike vehemently and see as no different from a Republican), and non-voting Eni Faleomavaega from American Samoa. If you count Community of Christ as "Mormon", then Leonard Boswell of Iowa is a Mormon Democrat.

On the Republican side, there's Dean Heller, Mike Crapo, Orrin Hatch, and Mike Lee. Former Senator Gordon Smith of Oregon was a Mormon Republican as well, though a somewhat moderate one. LDS Congressional GOPers are plentiful: Rob Bishop and Jason Chaffetz of Utah, Howard McKeon and Wally Herger of California, Jeff Flake from Arizona (he'll probably become Senator as well), Raul Labrador and Mike Simpson of Idaho.

I wasn't aware that Dean Heller was a Mormon, and I wasn't aware that Mark Udall wasn't. So Nevada, like Utah, has two Mormon Senators. Interesting.

Quote
As a side note, the Mormon online blogosphere (nicknamed the "bloggernacle") is much more liberal than most American Mormons. A few celebrity Mormons are moderate-to-liberal Democrats as well; Ken Jennings (who I think should run for office) is a Democrat, for example. A few members of the LDS leadership (General Authority Larry EchoHawk, and Church Historian Marlin K Jensen and his successor Stephen H Snow, as well as 3-4 Apostles), are  Democrats, but in all but EchoHawk's case, it seems to be a matter of habit rather than a political inclination.

Wasn't EchoHawk in the Obama administration at some point?

Yes, it is interesting. What's even more interesting is that even excluding Romney, there's a real "Mormon Moment" in politics. If you read the (blog, but professional) articles in this thread, you can get a sense for just how many Mormons are in Congress or running for Congress (Senate or House) this year. It's a very interesting set of articles. Even someone from that specific blog community is running for Congress (as a Democrat in Wyoming so he'll lose badly, but still).

Regarding EchoHawk, yes, he was Assistant Secretary of Indian Affairs for a little less than three years, and just released/resigned a few months ago. I actually remember his appointment, because he was the first Mormon that the Obama Administration appointed, even before Huntsman.
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« Reply #96 on: August 29, 2012, 05:32:46 pm »
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Skipping over everything...why? It's the most repulsive combination of Christian ignorance with American exceptionalism...aka the result of generations of America's worst, yet disturbingly prominent, traits. Sounds a lot like our politics if you ask me. Not worth a discussion, just a dismissal.
Seriously? You're going to just dismiss my entire faith? You're going to go "nope not worth talking about", and instead of just ignoring this thread, you've posted to that effect? You're going to needlessly offend for no reason whatsoever?

If you take offense, I apologize, no disrespect was meant towards you. Your religion on the other hand deserves no respect in my eyes and I won't pretend it's worth anything out of fear for people's deep attachments to their fairy tales. Most here will assure you it's not just your religion, I have little respect for most religions. Especially those with deeply Americanized dogma, such as Mormonism and most of our other versions of Christianity. Afleitch did a better job than I could at explaining more deeply. I enjoy religious discussions, but not when fact is mixed with myth. I respect the right to believe whatever you want for whatever reasons, but I don't hold back my honest opinions of the absurdities and atrocities of religion. I was a bit inflammatory, as I tend to be on this board. So excuse me, but I don't just throw my respect around to whoever and whatever demands it.
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Zioneer
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« Reply #97 on: August 29, 2012, 10:51:15 pm »
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Skipping over everything...why? It's the most repulsive combination of Christian ignorance with American exceptionalism...aka the result of generations of America's worst, yet disturbingly prominent, traits. Sounds a lot like our politics if you ask me. Not worth a discussion, just a dismissal.
Seriously? You're going to just dismiss my entire faith? You're going to go "nope not worth talking about", and instead of just ignoring this thread, you've posted to that effect? You're going to needlessly offend for no reason whatsoever?

If you take offense, I apologize, no disrespect was meant towards you. Your religion on the other hand deserves no respect in my eyes and I won't pretend it's worth anything out of fear for people's deep attachments to their fairy tales. Most here will assure you it's not just your religion, I have little respect for most religions. Especially those with deeply Americanized dogma, such as Mormonism and most of our other versions of Christianity. Afleitch did a better job than I could at explaining more deeply. I enjoy religious discussions, but not when fact is mixed with myth. I respect the right to believe whatever you want for whatever reasons, but I don't hold back my honest opinions of the absurdities and atrocities of religion. I was a bit inflammatory, as I tend to be on this board. So excuse me, but I don't just throw my respect around to whoever and whatever demands it.

Alright, fair enough. I still think you were far too inflammatory for comfort, but I'll accept your viewpoint on it.

I do think it's unfair that the LDS Church, as a younger religion, is expected to "grow up" quicker than older, more established religions (there certainly isn't the "get on with it" attitude displayed towards Catholicism, for example"), but meh, that's the price we pay for being founded less than two centuries ago.
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« Reply #98 on: August 29, 2012, 11:35:40 pm »
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That I also find to be perfectly fair. I actually find the disdain towards Mormonism with respect to other Christian denominations inappropriate and ignorant (though for reasons I'm sure you won't find agreeable). There is a double standard I'm sure many would be uncomfortable acknowledging. Such as the ridiculous notions of the parting of a sea or a massive arc containing the roots of modern nature being more acceptable than Missouri being the promised land and the birthplace of humanity or there being golden Jesus plates or whatever buried in New York.
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« Reply #99 on: August 30, 2012, 12:30:36 pm »
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All of which are perfectly acceptable things to believe, for reasons that do have something to do with their potential truth-value but are not controlled by it.
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A shameless agrarian collectivist with no respect for private property or individual rights.

His idea of freedom is - it is a bad thing and should be stopped at all costs.

Nathan-land.  As much fun as watching paint dry... literally.
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