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Author Topic: Let's discuss Mormonism.  (Read 12380 times)
Zioneer
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« Reply #125 on: October 14, 2012, 12:08:28 pm »
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Polygamy? Do you guys have any Biblical justifications or did Smith/Young have their own visions to justifiy it?

Both -if you read the Old Testament you will know that the ancient Hebrew patriarchs from Abraham to Jacob were polygamists (or at least bigamists). 

True, but why did Smith/Young accept it after monogamy became the norm?

That's a good question.  According to this PBS documentary (which I strongly encourage you all to watch if you haven't already), Joseph Smith supposedly received a vision during the Nauvoo, IL period that told him that polygamy was divinely sanctioned.  He later pressured his lieutenant Brigham Young into (reluctantly) accepting it as well. 
Well, reluctantly at first, because he ended up having 55 wives, and having 56 children from 16 of them.

Basically this; Brigham Young liked to take things Joseph Smith said to the extreme. With polygamy for example, Joseph Smith had multiple wives, but had no children (and therefore might not have had sexual relations with those wives), other than by his first wive. So Brigham has a massive amount of children from multiple wives. Joseph Smith said he was a bit uncomfortable with interracial marriage and that he wouldn't teach the LDS gospel to slaves if their masters didn't want it (which is what Missourians and Illinoisians though he would do), so Brigham bans black males from the priesthood. Joseph was Mayor of Nauvoo and likes the idea of "theodemocracy" (basically religiously-inspired democracy), so Brigham literally transforms half of the mostly empty Mountain West into a Mormon Empire.

Anyway, regarding polygamy, yes, according to the Church, Smith received a vision that said that he should restore polygamy like what Abraham of old had.
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« Reply #126 on: October 14, 2012, 03:29:16 pm »
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PioneerProgress:

Do you consider the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as being a Protestant sect, or as more of a stand-alone religion outside the known Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox traditions within Christianity? 
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« Reply #127 on: October 16, 2012, 03:29:43 pm »
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PioneerProgress:

Do you consider the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as being a Protestant sect, or as more of a stand-alone religion outside the known Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox traditions within Christianity? 

I'm open to either interpretation; the LDS Church has clear Protestant influences (King James Bible and all that), and it's founding was in the wake of massive Protestant evangelizing in New York State. Plus, we're fond of the idea that Martin Luther and the rest did the preliminary work to allow something like Mormonism to be possible in America. They weren't prophets, but they layed the groundwork. Also, we have no "Saints" like Catholicism does.

On the other hand, I'm readily willing to admit that Mormonism was and still is way out of the mainstream of "regular" Protestant Christianity (no Trinity, for one thing). We've got our own distinct religious culture, a theology that has very little to do with regular Protestantism, and a Catholic-style religious head. Plus, we've got distinct split-offs of our own, not just "different minister, same basic teachings"-type schisms.

So I would say that the LDS Church is heavily influenced by Protestantism, but is it's own religious tradition.
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« Reply #128 on: November 15, 2012, 11:05:49 pm »
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So the branches would be:

Catholic
Orthodox
Protestant
Mormon?
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« Reply #129 on: November 16, 2012, 11:49:44 am »
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So the branches would be:

Catholic
Orthodox
Protestant
Mormon?

Rather than Mormon, I'd make that fourth branch (if one restricts Christianity to just four branches) be Restorationist, which would include also Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other similar groups that hold that they are restoring lost practices of the early church.
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« Reply #130 on: November 16, 2012, 02:13:19 pm »
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So the branches would be:

Catholic
Orthodox
Protestant
Mormon?

Rather than Mormon, I'd make that fourth branch (if one restricts Christianity to just four branches) be Restorationist, which would include also Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other similar groups that hold that they are restoring lost practices of the early church.

That actually makes a lot of sense; I'd be okay with that categorizing.
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« Reply #131 on: November 16, 2012, 02:25:52 pm »
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So they'll have to change the books then, because the books say all Christians are, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant.
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Convincing BRTD to drop the Sneakers O'Toole BS is like convincing Sneakers O'Toole to take his sneakers off.

(I realize I'm probably just further encouraging him by saying that, and for this I apologize.)
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« Reply #132 on: November 16, 2012, 03:20:49 pm »
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So they'll have to change the books then, because the books say all Christians are, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant.

Well that's just not so.
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« Reply #133 on: November 16, 2012, 07:40:15 pm »
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So they'll have to change the books then, because the books say all Christians are, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant.

Well that's just not so.

Well, for a while there the Protestants denied that the Restorationists were Christian and the Catholic and the Orthodox saw nothing to distinguish Restorationists from Protestants.
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« Reply #134 on: November 16, 2012, 09:04:31 pm »
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Well the Restorationists are mainly cults anyway.
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Convincing BRTD to drop the Sneakers O'Toole BS is like convincing Sneakers O'Toole to take his sneakers off.

(I realize I'm probably just further encouraging him by saying that, and for this I apologize.)
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« Reply #135 on: November 17, 2012, 12:33:03 am »
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Well the Restorationists are mainly cults anyway.

Oh? Tell me more about how my faith is a cult. I insist.
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« Reply #136 on: November 17, 2012, 06:02:16 am »
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PioneerProgress: Can you speak to the validity of this video?
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« Reply #137 on: November 17, 2012, 11:25:56 am »
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PioneerProgress: Can you speak to the validity of this video?

I haven't done any of these rituals besides the baptism-by-proxy one, so I can't say for sure, but other Mormons I know have clarified that it's valid, though totally disrespectful to our desire to keep our rituals secret.

And yes, they're odd, but so are most older religious rituals.
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« Reply #138 on: November 17, 2012, 02:16:30 pm »
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Well the Restorationists are mainly cults anyway.

Oh? Tell me more about how my faith is a cult. I insist.

You don't allow non-Mormons into your temples, you have sources outside of the Bible, you only follow the parts of the Bible that support your beliefs, the church has specific laws that manipulate the followers, and a few other things.
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Convincing BRTD to drop the Sneakers O'Toole BS is like convincing Sneakers O'Toole to take his sneakers off.

(I realize I'm probably just further encouraging him by saying that, and for this I apologize.)
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« Reply #139 on: November 17, 2012, 03:11:21 pm »
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Well the Restorationists are mainly cults anyway.

Oh? Tell me more about how my faith is a cult. I insist.

You don't allow non-Mormons into your temples, you have sources outside of the Bible, you only follow the parts of the Bible that support your beliefs, the church has specific laws that manipulate the followers, and a few other things.

RE non-Mormons and temples: I keep hearing about how that makes my church a cult; but I don't understand why that qualifies the LDS church as a cult. Plenty of religions are uncomfortable with non-members having access to sacred rituals.

Sources outside the (traditional Protestant) Bible? So do the Jews, the various Christian Churches of the East (Ethopian Orthodox, Saint Thomas Christians, the Assyrian Church), and dozens of others.

Specific laws? Okay, tell me exactly what you would say are LDS church laws that manipulate followers beyond what other churches do to retain followers?

And what are the other things, hmm?

If you call my faith a cult, you're wrong. The LDS Church is part of the fabric of history, it's not some "cult".
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« Reply #140 on: November 17, 2012, 05:59:55 pm »
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While you do have sources outside of the Bible, the sources are put ABOVE The Bible and nly certain parts of the Bible you follow.
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Convincing BRTD to drop the Sneakers O'Toole BS is like convincing Sneakers O'Toole to take his sneakers off.

(I realize I'm probably just further encouraging him by saying that, and for this I apologize.)
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« Reply #141 on: November 17, 2012, 10:16:46 pm »
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The distinction between religion and cult is a false one. It's merely a matter of connotation. The secrecy thing does raise an eyebrow though. Just as with the government or your neighbor's finances, it makes you wonder what they have to hide. I'm unaware of any other major religion that keeps its activities a secret. Anybody is quite welcome to attend churches, mosques, and synagogues. Protestant churches, in particular, are always trying to get non members into their building And they're often quite creative. One large church near me operates a decent sized gym with membership far below market rate for the express purpose of getting non-believers inside the door.
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« Reply #142 on: November 18, 2012, 12:43:48 am »
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While you do have sources outside of the Bible, the sources are put ABOVE The Bible and nly certain parts of the Bible you follow.

Actually, we follow most parts of the Bible along with the non Bible scriptures. But thanks for trying!

The distinction between religion and cult is a false one. It's merely a matter of connotation. The secrecy thing does raise an eyebrow though. Just as with the government or your neighbor's finances, it makes you wonder what they have to hide. I'm unaware of any other major religion that keeps its activities a secret. Anybody is quite welcome to attend churches, mosques, and synagogues. Protestant churches, in particular, are always trying to get non members into their building And they're often quite creative. One large church near me operates a decent sized gym with membership far below market rate for the express purpose of getting non-believers inside the door.

Oh, we do that too, but the problem with that idea is that temples are not the same as churches of other faiths. We have churches and church buildings that anyone can use, and we frequently invite non-members to enjoy a dinner, a sports game, or a music performance at the church buildings. The Temples are like the difference between city hall and a government-owned restricted area. They are similar, but one is open to anybody, while the other (in this case the temple) performs functions that are and should be kept quiet. Imagine if you worked at a restricted facility and took your job very seriously, then some random guy broadcast what you were doing to the whole world? And this after countless numbers of people mock what you do in your job?
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« Reply #143 on: November 26, 2012, 06:46:39 pm »
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Where does the word, 'Mormon', come from?  I am asking with regard to its etymology. 
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« Reply #144 on: November 26, 2012, 07:19:11 pm »
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Where does the word, 'Mormon', come from?  I am asking with regard to its etymology. 

Mormon refers to the land Alma preached the gospel in the Book of Mormon. So it either comes from ancient Israelites in the new world or Joseph Smith's imagination depending on who you believe.
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« Reply #145 on: November 26, 2012, 09:01:02 pm »
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Where does the word, 'Mormon', come from?  I am asking with regard to its etymology. 

Mormon refers to the land Alma preached the gospel in the Book of Mormon. So it either comes from ancient Israelites in the new world or Joseph Smith's imagination depending on who you believe.

Also by the Nephite (a Book of Mormon culture) prophet Mormon, who, according to the LDS Church, abridged and collected together the BoM scriptures in their original form.
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« Reply #146 on: December 06, 2012, 04:38:43 pm »
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http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/12/06/1295941/mormon-churchs-new-homosexuality-resource-tells-gays-to-be-chaste-and-hopeful/?mobile=nc

Bit of PR work by the church here but this part striking:

'We believe that with an eternal perspective, a personís attraction to the same sex can be addressed and borne as a mortal test. It should not be viewed as a permanent condition. An eternal perspective beyond the immediacy of this lifeís challenges offers hope. Though some people, including those resisting same-sex attraction, may not have the opportunity to marry a person of the opposite sex in this life, a just God will provide them with ample opportunity to do so in the next. We can all live life in the full context of who we are, which is much broader than sexual attraction.'

Despite the fact that it is an extraordinarily offensive thing to say, I'm intrigued as to what theological gymnastics was applied to reach that conclusion?
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« Reply #147 on: December 06, 2012, 10:29:38 pm »
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I don't see anything offensive in there.
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« Reply #148 on: December 06, 2012, 11:59:16 pm »
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http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/12/06/1295941/mormon-churchs-new-homosexuality-resource-tells-gays-to-be-chaste-and-hopeful/?mobile=nc

Bit of PR work by the church here but this part striking:

'We believe that with an eternal perspective, a personís attraction to the same sex can be addressed and borne as a mortal test. It should not be viewed as a permanent condition. An eternal perspective beyond the immediacy of this lifeís challenges offers hope. Though some people, including those resisting same-sex attraction, may not have the opportunity to marry a person of the opposite sex in this life, a just God will provide them with ample opportunity to do so in the next. We can all live life in the full context of who we are, which is much broader than sexual attraction.'

Despite the fact that it is an extraordinarily offensive thing to say, I'm intrigued as to what theological gymnastics was applied to reach that conclusion?

The theological gymnastics of "we need good PR without invalidating any of our previous doctrine".
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« Reply #149 on: December 09, 2012, 02:43:21 pm »
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http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/12/06/1295941/mormon-churchs-new-homosexuality-resource-tells-gays-to-be-chaste-and-hopeful/?mobile=nc

Bit of PR work by the church here but this part striking:

'We believe that with an eternal perspective, a personís attraction to the same sex can be addressed and borne as a mortal test. It should not be viewed as a permanent condition. An eternal perspective beyond the immediacy of this lifeís challenges offers hope. Though some people, including those resisting same-sex attraction, may not have the opportunity to marry a person of the opposite sex in this life, a just God will provide them with ample opportunity to do so in the next. We can all live life in the full context of who we are, which is much broader than sexual attraction.'

Despite the fact that it is an extraordinarily offensive thing to say, I'm intrigued as to what theological gymnastics was applied to reach that conclusion?

The theological gymnastics of "we need good PR without invalidating any of our previous doctrine".

Is there any preexisting basis for the conclusion or is this new revelation?
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