Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 16, 2014, 04:31:47 pm
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Don't forget to get your 2013 Gubernatorial Endorsements and Predictions in!

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  General Discussion
| |-+  Religion & Philosophy (Moderator: Gustaf)
| | |-+  Let's discuss Mormonism.
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 Print
Author Topic: Let's discuss Mormonism.  (Read 12805 times)
Zioneer
PioneerProgress
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3857
United States


View Profile
« Reply #125 on: October 14, 2012, 12:08:28 pm »
Ignore

Polygamy? Do you guys have any Biblical justifications or did Smith/Young have their own visions to justifiy it?

Both -if you read the Old Testament you will know that the ancient Hebrew patriarchs from Abraham to Jacob were polygamists (or at least bigamists). 

True, but why did Smith/Young accept it after monogamy became the norm?

That's a good question.  According to this PBS documentary (which I strongly encourage you all to watch if you haven't already), Joseph Smith supposedly received a vision during the Nauvoo, IL period that told him that polygamy was divinely sanctioned.  He later pressured his lieutenant Brigham Young into (reluctantly) accepting it as well. 
Well, reluctantly at first, because he ended up having 55 wives, and having 56 children from 16 of them.

Basically this; Brigham Young liked to take things Joseph Smith said to the extreme. With polygamy for example, Joseph Smith had multiple wives, but had no children (and therefore might not have had sexual relations with those wives), other than by his first wive. So Brigham has a massive amount of children from multiple wives. Joseph Smith said he was a bit uncomfortable with interracial marriage and that he wouldn't teach the LDS gospel to slaves if their masters didn't want it (which is what Missourians and Illinoisians though he would do), so Brigham bans black males from the priesthood. Joseph was Mayor of Nauvoo and likes the idea of "theodemocracy" (basically religiously-inspired democracy), so Brigham literally transforms half of the mostly empty Mountain West into a Mormon Empire.

Anyway, regarding polygamy, yes, according to the Church, Smith received a vision that said that he should restore polygamy like what Abraham of old had.
Logged
Frodo
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 13480
United States


View Profile WWW
« Reply #126 on: October 14, 2012, 03:29:16 pm »
Ignore

PioneerProgress:

Do you consider the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as being a Protestant sect, or as more of a stand-alone religion outside the known Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox traditions within Christianity? 
Logged

Zioneer
PioneerProgress
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3857
United States


View Profile
« Reply #127 on: October 16, 2012, 03:29:43 pm »
Ignore

PioneerProgress:

Do you consider the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as being a Protestant sect, or as more of a stand-alone religion outside the known Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox traditions within Christianity? 

I'm open to either interpretation; the LDS Church has clear Protestant influences (King James Bible and all that), and it's founding was in the wake of massive Protestant evangelizing in New York State. Plus, we're fond of the idea that Martin Luther and the rest did the preliminary work to allow something like Mormonism to be possible in America. They weren't prophets, but they layed the groundwork. Also, we have no "Saints" like Catholicism does.

On the other hand, I'm readily willing to admit that Mormonism was and still is way out of the mainstream of "regular" Protestant Christianity (no Trinity, for one thing). We've got our own distinct religious culture, a theology that has very little to do with regular Protestantism, and a Catholic-style religious head. Plus, we've got distinct split-offs of our own, not just "different minister, same basic teachings"-type schisms.

So I would say that the LDS Church is heavily influenced by Protestantism, but is it's own religious tradition.
Logged
Adam Mendez-Flynn-Glazowski-Chanut-Harper-Zhang-Rothman-Wald
The Obamanation
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5905
United States


View Profile
« Reply #128 on: November 15, 2012, 11:05:49 pm »
Ignore

So the branches would be:

Catholic
Orthodox
Protestant
Mormon?
Logged

I imagine hyphenation, for both spouses, as a sort of custom would very quickly make us all sound like a bunch of bizarrely named English aristocrats. If Peter Flynn marries Beatrice Mendez and has a kid named Anthony, who in turn marries Alice Glazowski-Chanut, their kid would be named Colin Mendez-Flynn-Glazowski-Chanut, who would then marry Beth Harper-Zhang-Rothman-Wald, and their kid would be named...
True Federalist
Ernest
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 28205
United States


View Profile WWW
« Reply #129 on: November 16, 2012, 11:49:44 am »
Ignore

So the branches would be:

Catholic
Orthodox
Protestant
Mormon?

Rather than Mormon, I'd make that fourth branch (if one restricts Christianity to just four branches) be Restorationist, which would include also Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other similar groups that hold that they are restoring lost practices of the early church.
Logged

I wonder why Van Heusen never bothered to make women's clothing?
Zioneer
PioneerProgress
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3857
United States


View Profile
« Reply #130 on: November 16, 2012, 02:13:19 pm »
Ignore

So the branches would be:

Catholic
Orthodox
Protestant
Mormon?

Rather than Mormon, I'd make that fourth branch (if one restricts Christianity to just four branches) be Restorationist, which would include also Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other similar groups that hold that they are restoring lost practices of the early church.

That actually makes a lot of sense; I'd be okay with that categorizing.
Logged
Adam Mendez-Flynn-Glazowski-Chanut-Harper-Zhang-Rothman-Wald
The Obamanation
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5905
United States


View Profile
« Reply #131 on: November 16, 2012, 02:25:52 pm »
Ignore

So they'll have to change the books then, because the books say all Christians are, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant.
Logged

I imagine hyphenation, for both spouses, as a sort of custom would very quickly make us all sound like a bunch of bizarrely named English aristocrats. If Peter Flynn marries Beatrice Mendez and has a kid named Anthony, who in turn marries Alice Glazowski-Chanut, their kid would be named Colin Mendez-Flynn-Glazowski-Chanut, who would then marry Beth Harper-Zhang-Rothman-Wald, and their kid would be named...
asexual trans victimologist
Nathan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12526


View Profile
« Reply #132 on: November 16, 2012, 03:20:49 pm »
Ignore

So they'll have to change the books then, because the books say all Christians are, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant.

Well that's just not so.
Logged

A shameless agrarian collectivist with no respect for private property or individual rights.

His idea of freedom is - it is a bad thing and should be stopped at all costs.

Nathan-land.  As much fun as watching paint dry... literally.
True Federalist
Ernest
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 28205
United States


View Profile WWW
« Reply #133 on: November 16, 2012, 07:40:15 pm »
Ignore

So they'll have to change the books then, because the books say all Christians are, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant.

Well that's just not so.

Well, for a while there the Protestants denied that the Restorationists were Christian and the Catholic and the Orthodox saw nothing to distinguish Restorationists from Protestants.
Logged

I wonder why Van Heusen never bothered to make women's clothing?
Adam Mendez-Flynn-Glazowski-Chanut-Harper-Zhang-Rothman-Wald
The Obamanation
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5905
United States


View Profile
« Reply #134 on: November 16, 2012, 09:04:31 pm »
Ignore

Well the Restorationists are mainly cults anyway.
Logged

I imagine hyphenation, for both spouses, as a sort of custom would very quickly make us all sound like a bunch of bizarrely named English aristocrats. If Peter Flynn marries Beatrice Mendez and has a kid named Anthony, who in turn marries Alice Glazowski-Chanut, their kid would be named Colin Mendez-Flynn-Glazowski-Chanut, who would then marry Beth Harper-Zhang-Rothman-Wald, and their kid would be named...
Zioneer
PioneerProgress
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3857
United States


View Profile
« Reply #135 on: November 17, 2012, 12:33:03 am »
Ignore

Well the Restorationists are mainly cults anyway.

Oh? Tell me more about how my faith is a cult. I insist.
Logged
Lowly Griff
Adam Griffin
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5555
Greece


View Profile
« Reply #136 on: November 17, 2012, 06:02:16 am »
Ignore

PioneerProgress: Can you speak to the validity of this video?
Logged

I don't have to meet a certain standard in order for God to allow me into heaven.

Cisgender is a nonsense word invented by the Jewish Left-Wing Press to help spread neoliberal ideals and recruit young children into homosexualism.
Zioneer
PioneerProgress
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3857
United States


View Profile
« Reply #137 on: November 17, 2012, 11:25:56 am »
Ignore

PioneerProgress: Can you speak to the validity of this video?

I haven't done any of these rituals besides the baptism-by-proxy one, so I can't say for sure, but other Mormons I know have clarified that it's valid, though totally disrespectful to our desire to keep our rituals secret.

And yes, they're odd, but so are most older religious rituals.
Logged
Adam Mendez-Flynn-Glazowski-Chanut-Harper-Zhang-Rothman-Wald
The Obamanation
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5905
United States


View Profile
« Reply #138 on: November 17, 2012, 02:16:30 pm »
Ignore

Well the Restorationists are mainly cults anyway.

Oh? Tell me more about how my faith is a cult. I insist.

You don't allow non-Mormons into your temples, you have sources outside of the Bible, you only follow the parts of the Bible that support your beliefs, the church has specific laws that manipulate the followers, and a few other things.
Logged

I imagine hyphenation, for both spouses, as a sort of custom would very quickly make us all sound like a bunch of bizarrely named English aristocrats. If Peter Flynn marries Beatrice Mendez and has a kid named Anthony, who in turn marries Alice Glazowski-Chanut, their kid would be named Colin Mendez-Flynn-Glazowski-Chanut, who would then marry Beth Harper-Zhang-Rothman-Wald, and their kid would be named...
Zioneer
PioneerProgress
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3857
United States


View Profile
« Reply #139 on: November 17, 2012, 03:11:21 pm »
Ignore

Well the Restorationists are mainly cults anyway.

Oh? Tell me more about how my faith is a cult. I insist.

You don't allow non-Mormons into your temples, you have sources outside of the Bible, you only follow the parts of the Bible that support your beliefs, the church has specific laws that manipulate the followers, and a few other things.

RE non-Mormons and temples: I keep hearing about how that makes my church a cult; but I don't understand why that qualifies the LDS church as a cult. Plenty of religions are uncomfortable with non-members having access to sacred rituals.

Sources outside the (traditional Protestant) Bible? So do the Jews, the various Christian Churches of the East (Ethopian Orthodox, Saint Thomas Christians, the Assyrian Church), and dozens of others.

Specific laws? Okay, tell me exactly what you would say are LDS church laws that manipulate followers beyond what other churches do to retain followers?

And what are the other things, hmm?

If you call my faith a cult, you're wrong. The LDS Church is part of the fabric of history, it's not some "cult".
Logged
Adam Mendez-Flynn-Glazowski-Chanut-Harper-Zhang-Rothman-Wald
The Obamanation
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5905
United States


View Profile
« Reply #140 on: November 17, 2012, 05:59:55 pm »
Ignore

While you do have sources outside of the Bible, the sources are put ABOVE The Bible and nly certain parts of the Bible you follow.
Logged

I imagine hyphenation, for both spouses, as a sort of custom would very quickly make us all sound like a bunch of bizarrely named English aristocrats. If Peter Flynn marries Beatrice Mendez and has a kid named Anthony, who in turn marries Alice Glazowski-Chanut, their kid would be named Colin Mendez-Flynn-Glazowski-Chanut, who would then marry Beth Harper-Zhang-Rothman-Wald, and their kid would be named...
memphis
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 14747


Political Matrix
E: -3.10, S: -3.83


View Profile
« Reply #141 on: November 17, 2012, 10:16:46 pm »
Ignore

The distinction between religion and cult is a false one. It's merely a matter of connotation. The secrecy thing does raise an eyebrow though. Just as with the government or your neighbor's finances, it makes you wonder what they have to hide. I'm unaware of any other major religion that keeps its activities a secret. Anybody is quite welcome to attend churches, mosques, and synagogues. Protestant churches, in particular, are always trying to get non members into their building And they're often quite creative. One large church near me operates a decent sized gym with membership far below market rate for the express purpose of getting non-believers inside the door.
Logged

I cannot do anything good under my own power. 
I will get up and move around every now and then so I reduce the chances to get hit with another Grade 8 headache in the morning.
Zioneer
PioneerProgress
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3857
United States


View Profile
« Reply #142 on: November 18, 2012, 12:43:48 am »
Ignore

While you do have sources outside of the Bible, the sources are put ABOVE The Bible and nly certain parts of the Bible you follow.

Actually, we follow most parts of the Bible along with the non Bible scriptures. But thanks for trying!

The distinction between religion and cult is a false one. It's merely a matter of connotation. The secrecy thing does raise an eyebrow though. Just as with the government or your neighbor's finances, it makes you wonder what they have to hide. I'm unaware of any other major religion that keeps its activities a secret. Anybody is quite welcome to attend churches, mosques, and synagogues. Protestant churches, in particular, are always trying to get non members into their building And they're often quite creative. One large church near me operates a decent sized gym with membership far below market rate for the express purpose of getting non-believers inside the door.

Oh, we do that too, but the problem with that idea is that temples are not the same as churches of other faiths. We have churches and church buildings that anyone can use, and we frequently invite non-members to enjoy a dinner, a sports game, or a music performance at the church buildings. The Temples are like the difference between city hall and a government-owned restricted area. They are similar, but one is open to anybody, while the other (in this case the temple) performs functions that are and should be kept quiet. Imagine if you worked at a restricted facility and took your job very seriously, then some random guy broadcast what you were doing to the whole world? And this after countless numbers of people mock what you do in your job?
Logged
Frodo
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 13480
United States


View Profile WWW
« Reply #143 on: November 26, 2012, 06:46:39 pm »
Ignore

Where does the word, 'Mormon', come from?  I am asking with regard to its etymology. 
Logged

DC Al Fine
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 7078
Canada


View Profile
« Reply #144 on: November 26, 2012, 07:19:11 pm »
Ignore

Where does the word, 'Mormon', come from?  I am asking with regard to its etymology. 

Mormon refers to the land Alma preached the gospel in the Book of Mormon. So it either comes from ancient Israelites in the new world or Joseph Smith's imagination depending on who you believe.
Logged

Economic: 3.1
Social: 2.78

Quote from: Don Colacho
The Gospels and the Communist Manifesto are on the wane; the worldís future lies in the power of Coca-Cola and pornography.
Zioneer
PioneerProgress
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3857
United States


View Profile
« Reply #145 on: November 26, 2012, 09:01:02 pm »
Ignore

Where does the word, 'Mormon', come from?  I am asking with regard to its etymology. 

Mormon refers to the land Alma preached the gospel in the Book of Mormon. So it either comes from ancient Israelites in the new world or Joseph Smith's imagination depending on who you believe.

Also by the Nephite (a Book of Mormon culture) prophet Mormon, who, according to the LDS Church, abridged and collected together the BoM scriptures in their original form.
Logged
afleitch
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 21891


Political Matrix
E: 2.45, S: -8.17

View Profile
« Reply #146 on: December 06, 2012, 04:38:43 pm »
Ignore

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/12/06/1295941/mormon-churchs-new-homosexuality-resource-tells-gays-to-be-chaste-and-hopeful/?mobile=nc

Bit of PR work by the church here but this part striking:

'We believe that with an eternal perspective, a personís attraction to the same sex can be addressed and borne as a mortal test. It should not be viewed as a permanent condition. An eternal perspective beyond the immediacy of this lifeís challenges offers hope. Though some people, including those resisting same-sex attraction, may not have the opportunity to marry a person of the opposite sex in this life, a just God will provide them with ample opportunity to do so in the next. We can all live life in the full context of who we are, which is much broader than sexual attraction.'

Despite the fact that it is an extraordinarily offensive thing to say, I'm intrigued as to what theological gymnastics was applied to reach that conclusion?
Logged

Adam Mendez-Flynn-Glazowski-Chanut-Harper-Zhang-Rothman-Wald
The Obamanation
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5905
United States


View Profile
« Reply #147 on: December 06, 2012, 10:29:38 pm »
Ignore

I don't see anything offensive in there.
Logged

I imagine hyphenation, for both spouses, as a sort of custom would very quickly make us all sound like a bunch of bizarrely named English aristocrats. If Peter Flynn marries Beatrice Mendez and has a kid named Anthony, who in turn marries Alice Glazowski-Chanut, their kid would be named Colin Mendez-Flynn-Glazowski-Chanut, who would then marry Beth Harper-Zhang-Rothman-Wald, and their kid would be named...
Zioneer
PioneerProgress
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3857
United States


View Profile
« Reply #148 on: December 06, 2012, 11:59:16 pm »
Ignore

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/12/06/1295941/mormon-churchs-new-homosexuality-resource-tells-gays-to-be-chaste-and-hopeful/?mobile=nc

Bit of PR work by the church here but this part striking:

'We believe that with an eternal perspective, a personís attraction to the same sex can be addressed and borne as a mortal test. It should not be viewed as a permanent condition. An eternal perspective beyond the immediacy of this lifeís challenges offers hope. Though some people, including those resisting same-sex attraction, may not have the opportunity to marry a person of the opposite sex in this life, a just God will provide them with ample opportunity to do so in the next. We can all live life in the full context of who we are, which is much broader than sexual attraction.'

Despite the fact that it is an extraordinarily offensive thing to say, I'm intrigued as to what theological gymnastics was applied to reach that conclusion?

The theological gymnastics of "we need good PR without invalidating any of our previous doctrine".
Logged
asexual trans victimologist
Nathan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12526


View Profile
« Reply #149 on: December 09, 2012, 02:43:21 pm »
Ignore

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/12/06/1295941/mormon-churchs-new-homosexuality-resource-tells-gays-to-be-chaste-and-hopeful/?mobile=nc

Bit of PR work by the church here but this part striking:

'We believe that with an eternal perspective, a personís attraction to the same sex can be addressed and borne as a mortal test. It should not be viewed as a permanent condition. An eternal perspective beyond the immediacy of this lifeís challenges offers hope. Though some people, including those resisting same-sex attraction, may not have the opportunity to marry a person of the opposite sex in this life, a just God will provide them with ample opportunity to do so in the next. We can all live life in the full context of who we are, which is much broader than sexual attraction.'

Despite the fact that it is an extraordinarily offensive thing to say, I'm intrigued as to what theological gymnastics was applied to reach that conclusion?

The theological gymnastics of "we need good PR without invalidating any of our previous doctrine".

Is there any preexisting basis for the conclusion or is this new revelation?
Logged

A shameless agrarian collectivist with no respect for private property or individual rights.

His idea of freedom is - it is a bad thing and should be stopped at all costs.

Nathan-land.  As much fun as watching paint dry... literally.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines