Is Obama a Liberal or Moderate?
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 19, 2024, 03:01:49 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  Election Archive
  Election Archive
  2012 Elections
  Is Obama a Liberal or Moderate?
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2]
Author Topic: Is Obama a Liberal or Moderate?  (Read 7063 times)
Marokai Backbeat
Marokai Blue
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,477
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.42, S: -7.39

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2012, 05:55:58 PM »

Relative to America, he's a center left moderate/social liberal who governs in a relatively centrist/corporatist manner and campaigns as a populist, though in most of the rest of the first world he wouldn't be considered anywhere near the actual left.
Logged
ajb
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 869
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2012, 06:23:06 PM »

It would be interesting to know more about how people define both the labels they use for themselves, and the labels they use for others.
Clearly, for example, what a liberal calls "liberal," and what a conservative calls "liberal," are different -- and not just because for one it's a fuzzy, feel-good word, and for the other, it's a misguided world view, or worse.
For me as a liberal, the difference between conservatives and liberals on economic policy in America today would go something like this. Both liberals and conservatives believe that, in general, markets do the best job of allocating resources (that's why liberals are liberals, and not socialists or communists). They differ in how they feel about negative externalities and market failures, with liberals thinking we're all better off in the long run if government acts to correct these cases where markets fail, and conservatives thinking that it's better to leave the market alone, even if the market's failures hurt some people disproportionately, because attempts to fix the market will only make things worse.
As such, Obama has governed pretty much as a mainstream American liberal, while studiously avoiding any policy positions that would put him to the left of liberal.
Of course, what I've just described as the American liberal position would have been the European center-right position circa 1975. 
Logged
Torie
Moderators
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 46,047
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -4.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2012, 07:09:23 PM »

Probably the most liberal POTUS to serve in my lifetime. Sometimes I think Obama tries to go as Left as he can, while still remaining politically viable. He certainly, unlike Clinton, has done nothing to really upset his base, including doing nothing on entitlements, even though he won't increase taxes on the middle class to pay for it - just a 4% increase or so on those making over 250K, which gets you about one twelfth of the way to something that will pencil.
Logged
ajb
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 869
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2012, 07:37:20 PM »

Probably the most liberal POTUS to serve in my lifetime. Sometimes I think Obama tries to go as Left as he can, while still remaining politically viable. He certainly, unlike Clinton, has done nothing to really upset his base, including doing nothing on entitlements, even though he won't increase taxes on the middle class to pay for it - just a 4% increase or so on those making over 250K, which gets you about one twelfth of the way to something that will pencil.
As I'm sure you're aware, the CBO would dispute you on the claim of yours I've bolded.
Logged
Indy Texas
independentTX
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,241
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.52, S: -3.48

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2012, 08:13:09 PM »

Economic Policy - more liberal than Clinton and Carter; less liberal than LBJ

Foreign Policy - a realist in the George H. W. Bush mold; he doesn't seem to have any major foreign policy aspirations in the sense that LBJ and Dubya did; he's more hesitant to intervene in external conflicts (Libya, Syria) than Bill Clinton was (Bosnia)

I don't think it's very helpful to make relative judgments about social policy since so many of the issues concerned are contemporary. (If you opposed integration in the 1950s, you'd be considered a conservative; if you opposed integration in the 2010s, you'd be so far off the map I wouldn't know what to do with you.) Obama's "evolving" stance on gay marriage could be viewed as opportunistic and self-serving, and in that sense he wouldn't be unlike Jimmy Carter, who was incredibly two-faced regarding racial issues during his time in Georgia state politics.
Logged
World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
Moderators
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 34,220


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2012, 08:29:59 PM »

Distinctly liberal in the Anglo-North American business-and-labor-two-good-friends, generically and non-teleologically 'progressive' on social matters, internationalist-realist model pioneered by the Wilfrid Lauriers and John Lindsays of the world, not at all left in the mold of your Pancho Villas or Eugenes Debs. Not a hugely ideological or argumentative advocate of the liberal in this sense view of things (while securely in office; while campaigning he goes in a leftward direction) but has it as a very obvious set of assumptions.
Logged
ajb
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 869
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2012, 09:19:54 PM »

I'd really dispute the claim that Obama is more to the left, economically, than Clinton, let alone Carter. Taxes are lower than they were under Clinton, and it's Obama's policy that they should stay that way. Obama care is more market-oriented than Hillarycare was, and is derived fairly explicitly from the kind of ideas that the Heritage Foundation liked in the '90s, as a way of forestalling a genuinely leftist set of reforms.
Logged
Torie
Moderators
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 46,047
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -4.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2012, 11:04:07 PM »

Probably the most liberal POTUS to serve in my lifetime. Sometimes I think Obama tries to go as Left as he can, while still remaining politically viable. He certainly, unlike Clinton, has done nothing to really upset his base, including doing nothing on entitlements, even though he won't increase taxes on the middle class to pay for it - just a 4% increase or so on those making over 250K, which gets you about one twelfth of the way to something that will pencil.
As I'm sure you're aware, the CBO would dispute you on the claim of yours I've bolded.

What has Obama done?
Logged
Indy Texas
independentTX
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,241
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.52, S: -3.48

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2012, 11:06:00 PM »

I'd really dispute the claim that Obama is more to the left, economically, than Clinton, let alone Carter. Taxes are lower than they were under Clinton, and it's Obama's policy that they should stay that way. Obama care is more market-oriented than Hillarycare was, and is derived fairly explicitly from the kind of ideas that the Heritage Foundation liked in the '90s, as a way of forestalling a genuinely leftist set of reforms.


Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter both left economic deregulation as their chief economic accomplishments. Clinton deregulated the financial industry; Carter deregulated airlines and trucking. Obama has enacted more new federal regulations than any president since Nixon.

Obama wants higher taxes on the wealthy; Clinton has publicly disagreed.

And Carter did not support any attempt at universal healthcare as president. He did not believe people had a "right" to healthcare. Nixon was more of a liberal on healthcare than Carter.
Logged
ajb
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 869
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2012, 11:48:35 PM »

Probably the most liberal POTUS to serve in my lifetime. Sometimes I think Obama tries to go as Left as he can, while still remaining politically viable. He certainly, unlike Clinton, has done nothing to really upset his base, including doing nothing on entitlements, even though he won't increase taxes on the middle class to pay for it - just a 4% increase or so on those making over 250K, which gets you about one twelfth of the way to something that will pencil.
As I'm sure you're aware, the CBO would dispute you on the claim of yours I've bolded.

What has Obama done?
Five letters. PP-ACA.
Logged
Sbane
sbane
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,302


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2012, 12:11:24 AM »

Probably the most liberal POTUS to serve in my lifetime.

So you were born after 1968?
Logged
Sbane
sbane
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,302


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2012, 12:15:44 AM »

Probably the most liberal POTUS to serve in my lifetime. Sometimes I think Obama tries to go as Left as he can, while still remaining politically viable. He certainly, unlike Clinton, has done nothing to really upset his base, including doing nothing on entitlements, even though he won't increase taxes on the middle class to pay for it - just a 4% increase or so on those making over 250K, which gets you about one twelfth of the way to something that will pencil.
As I'm sure you're aware, the CBO would dispute you on the claim of yours I've bolded.

What has Obama done?
Five letters. PP-ACA.

PPACA does set the stage for cuts in Medicare but it doesn't actually do it. I think more cost sharing is needed but Ryan's plan is completely unacceptable. He is setting a cap on the government's expenditure per patient when in reality there needs to be a cap on the individual's expenditure after greater cost sharing. And if that requires a 90% tax rate on Millionaires (it doesn't of course) then so be it.
Logged
○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└
jfern
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 53,570


Political Matrix
E: -7.38, S: -8.36

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2012, 12:24:26 AM »
« Edited: July 31, 2012, 12:30:46 AM by ○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└ »

Probably the most liberal POTUS to serve in my lifetime.

So you were born after 1968?

He was definitely born after 1980, and probably after 2000.
Logged
ZuWo
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,873
Switzerland


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2012, 03:15:44 AM »

"Liberal" for the US, but fairly "moderate" in relation to European politics.
Logged
Ljube
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,944
Political Matrix
E: 2.71, S: -6.09

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2012, 04:29:20 AM »

Obama is a statist. He is not a liberal or a conservative. He believes that the government should control and regulate all areas of human activity.
He is also for enforcing his regulations with draconian punishments.

The chief reason for this is his elitism and disconnect from real life.

He is a good follower of Plato and his "Republic". He considers himself one of Plato’s "philosopher kings", and his czars Plato's "aristocracy". According to Plato, democracy is one of the worst forms of government and aristocracy (rule by the enlightened elite) the best.
Logged
tik 🪀✨
ComradeCarter
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,499
Australia
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2012, 07:00:41 AM »

Obama is a statist. He is not a liberal or a conservative. He believes that the government should control and regulate all areas of human activity.
He is also for enforcing his regulations with draconian punishments.

The chief reason for this is his elitism and disconnect from real life.

He is a good follower of Plato and his "Republic". He considers himself one of Plato’s "philosopher kings", and his czars Plato's "aristocracy". According to Plato, democracy is one of the worst forms of government and aristocracy (rule by the enlightened elite) the best.


Sounds to me as though you liken yourself to be an enlightened elite with such piercing knowledge.  Unfortunately the other similarity is your disconnection from reality. Don't get me wrong, though, please keep posting things like this. It adds a certain charm to this board.
Logged
Vosem
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,562
United States


Political Matrix
E: 8.13, S: -6.09

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2012, 07:09:43 AM »

Probably the most liberal POTUS to serve in my lifetime.

So you were born after 1968?

He was definitely born after 1980, and probably after 2000.

Torie is one of the oldest users on the forum, and, as I recall, was born sometime in the 1950s.
Logged
True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
Moderators
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 42,157
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2012, 08:39:16 AM »

Probably the most liberal POTUS to serve in my lifetime.

So you were born after 1968?

He was definitely born after 1980, and probably after 2000.

1980?!?   Don't confuse the post-presidency Carter with President Carter.  As a president, Carter was the most conservative Democrat to hold the office since at least Wilson and possibly Cleveland.
Logged
Beet
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 28,772


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2012, 09:39:23 AM »

Probably the most liberal POTUS to serve in my lifetime. Sometimes I think Obama tries to go as Left as he can, while still remaining politically viable. He certainly, unlike Clinton, has done nothing to really upset his base, including doing nothing on entitlements, even though he won't increase taxes on the middle class to pay for it - just a 4% increase or so on those making over 250K, which gets you about one twelfth of the way to something that will pencil.

That Obamacare was the Heritage Foundation's alternative to Hillarycare, which was pushed by Clinton at the same point in his Presidency, kind of throws a wrench into the notion that he's not to the right of Bill Clinton.

Clinton came into office in the wake of the collapse of communism, the rise of the Washington consensus, and the peak of a neoliberal tsunami sweeping the globe. Obama came into office in the wake of the failure of all of that. In context, Obama's embrace of neoliberalism has been remarkable. Obama even refuses to raise taxes on the middle class, whereas Clinton and his predecessor H.W. Bush did.

For the notion that Obama hasn't upset his base, is laughable to anyone who followed liberal blogs in 2009 and 2010. For instance, look up the term "hippie punching."
Logged
anvi
anvikshiki
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,400
Netherlands


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2012, 10:08:07 AM »

I agree with Torie that Obama hasn't actually done anything on entitlement reform, outside of taking $500 billion out of Medicare Advantage subsidies over the next ten years, only to put that money back into the financing scheme for PPACA.  He also has signed onto raiding the Social Security stash to fund general budget priorities, which is a bad idea, of course.  Outside of this, Obama hasn't brought forward any entitlement initiatives of his own.

It is my understanding however, from the Bob Nabors-Barry Jackson email correspondence during the debt-ceiling/budget negotiations that Obama was willing to go along with pretty big entitlement cuts--for Medicare $250 billion in the first ten years and $800 billion in the decade after that, in Medicaid $110 billion in the first decade and another $250 billion in the following decade, and on Social Security he was willing to go with the chained CPI cost of living adjustment rather than raise the retirement age (the latter refusal being, um, dumb).  In any event, it's been reported that Obama had gotten Reid and Pelosi to agree in principle to back these changes.  Of course, Obama flubbed the deal when he jumped at the bare bones Gang of Six proposal, practically, it seems, after consulting almost no one. Still, if the Obama-Beohner deal had been proposed, I doubt liberals would take kindly to any of the above cuts.

All that being said, I think Obama is actually more a lefty than I had taken him to be during the '08 campaign.   
Logged
ajb
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 869
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2012, 11:30:43 AM »

I'd really dispute the claim that Obama is more to the left, economically, than Clinton, let alone Carter. Taxes are lower than they were under Clinton, and it's Obama's policy that they should stay that way. Obama care is more market-oriented than Hillarycare was, and is derived fairly explicitly from the kind of ideas that the Heritage Foundation liked in the '90s, as a way of forestalling a genuinely leftist set of reforms.


Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter both left economic deregulation as their chief economic accomplishments. Clinton deregulated the financial industry; Carter deregulated airlines and trucking. Obama has enacted more new federal regulations than any president since Nixon.

Obama wants higher taxes on the wealthy; Clinton has publicly disagreed.

And Carter did not support any attempt at universal healthcare as president. He did not believe people had a "right" to healthcare. Nixon was more of a liberal on healthcare than Carter.

Carter did call for "a comprehensive national health insurance system with universal and mandatory coverage." He wasn't very successful at making it happen, mind you.
Logged
Sbane
sbane
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,302


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2012, 11:58:05 AM »
« Edited: July 31, 2012, 12:00:30 PM by Senator Sbane »

Probably the most liberal POTUS to serve in my lifetime.

So you were born after 1968?

He was definitely born after 1980, and probably after 2000.

Torie is one of the oldest users on the forum, and, as I recall, was born sometime in the 1950s.

Haha, you really think I don't know how old he is? I was making a point of course.
Logged
Torie
Moderators
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 46,047
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -4.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2012, 12:48:37 PM »

Probably the most liberal POTUS to serve in my lifetime.

So you were born after 1968?

He was definitely born after 1980, and probably after 2000.

Torie is one of the oldest users on the forum, and, as I recall, was born sometime in the 1950s.

Haha, you really think I don't know how old he is? I was making a point of course.

I'm getting younger by the day sbane. Smiley
Logged
All Along The Watchtower
Progressive Realist
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,386
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2012, 05:59:24 PM »

Define "Liberal" and define "moderate."
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.244 seconds with 13 queries.