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| | |-+  Which attack is more dishonest?
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Question: Which attack is more dishonest?
Swift boat attacks   -38 (73.1%)
"You didn't build that" attacks   -14 (26.9%)
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Total Voters: 52

Author Topic: Which attack is more dishonest?  (Read 1356 times)
Harry
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« on: July 28, 2012, 11:30:54 am »
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It's easy for me to kneejerk say Swiftboating since I'm such a John Kerry fanboy and it probably cost him the election, which YDBT obviously won't for Obama, but looking at it from a pure dishonesty calculation, they're about the same:

Swift boat attacks - complete and intentional lies
"You didn't build that" attacks - complete and intentional selective editing to distort what Obama actually said
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« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2012, 12:15:52 pm »
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Probably the swiftboat attacks, imo. Basically making stuff up and ignoring the report's of Kerry's own crew is arguably worse than replaying a damaging (but unedited!) clip somewhat out of context.

What possessed Obama to say that in the middle of an election year? Yes, when you read the whole speech it's obvious what he meant, but "You didn't build that," is right up there with "Corporations are people too". I can't help but wonder if there was originally a "... without help" or "... by yourself" that was supposed to be at the end of it.

There's an old proverb that goes something like, "You can predict the behavior of an organization by assuming it's secretly controlled by a cabal of its enemies bent on discrediting it." So far, both Obama and Romney seem to be living up to that standard.
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strangeland
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2012, 12:18:38 pm »
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The Swift Boat Attacks were completely baseless, while Obama actually said "You didn't build that," though his words were certainly ill-chosen and easily taken out of context.
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2012, 12:24:17 pm »
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The Romney campaign has actually emailed the full context of the speech out to its supporters. The problem with "you didn't build that" is that it sheds light on a ideology that's too focussed on collectivity and government. Bridges and infrastructure are helpful, but that doesn't negate the fact that the business owner is responsible for his or her own business. Arguably, the business owner actually paid for those bridges too, in the form of taxes.

Essentially, Obama's comment reflects his belief that government is the solution, not the problem. Republicans would disagree.
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Clinton1996
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2012, 12:33:00 pm »
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The Romney campaign has actually emailed the full context of the speech out to its supporters. The problem with "you didn't build that" is that it sheds light on a ideology that's too focussed on collectivity and government. Bridges and infrastructure are helpful, but that doesn't negate the fact that the business owner is responsible for his or her own business. Arguably, the business owner actually paid for those bridges too, in the form of taxes.

Essentially, Obama's comment reflects his belief that government is the solution, not the problem. Republicans would disagree.
No, his comment reflects his belief that government is not the problem, nor is it the solution. Government is a tool that people use for their own benefit. In the case of business owners, they use Government programs to get loans to start the business, use the roads that Government built to move their products to market, and use the Teachers that Government hires to help them learn about our system. He was saying "you didn't build that WITHOUT SOME HELP". That someone along the way gave you a hand.
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2012, 12:36:02 pm »
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The Swift Boat Attacks were completely baseless, while Obama actually said "You didn't build that," though his words were certainly ill-chosen and easily taken out of context.

Therefore, Option 1.
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2012, 12:37:03 pm »
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... Insinuating you should not take credit for your own business because the government helped you out.

... Ignoring the fact that government taxes and regulations also impact business, but in a way that is a little less than congratulatory.
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Clinton1996
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2012, 12:42:41 pm »
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... Insinuating you should not take credit for your own business because the government helped you out.

... Ignoring the fact that government taxes and regulations also impact business, but in a way that is a little less than congratulatory.
Are you one of those "Obama is a socialist communist Muslim who's plan is to destroy America'sCapitalist system" guys?
The dude has cut taxes for Small Businesses 17 Times. I doubt Dodd-Frank will hinder mom-and-pop stores' abilities to hire, seeing as it was made to regulate big banks.
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2012, 01:22:31 pm »
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You have to understand the Leftist mindset.  Anytime you use a Leftist's very own words -- absolutely verified on video tape, whether made part of prepared remarks before Congress, or made in a speech before supporters, -- worse of all -- made in response to a simple question by some poor mook from Ohio, it's "unfair, horribly unfair!" because such attacks obscure the real truth that liberals are, you know, actually very smart and caring people.  (And if you're that poor Ohio mook, expect to be officially investigated.)

You see, for a Leftist, a "fair" attack is one that makes up a quote and assigns it to a conservative -- complete with an actor who will show you what it would have looked like if the conservative had actually said it, like "I can see Russia from my house!" -- because such attacks show the real truth that conservatives are, you know, actually really stupid and/or evil.
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2012, 01:38:36 pm »
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... Insinuating you should not take credit for your own business because the government helped you out.

... Ignoring the fact that government taxes and regulations also impact business, but in a way that is a little less than congratulatory.
Are you one of those "Obama is a socialist communist Muslim who's plan is to destroy America'sCapitalist system" guys?
The dude has cut taxes for Small Businesses 17 Times. I doubt Dodd-Frank will hinder mom-and-pop stores' abilities to hire, seeing as it was made to regulate big banks.

I don't believe he will destroy capitalism, no. But I do believe he has more of a collectivist mindset than any recent president before him, yes. Also, I'd say Obamacare counts as a big enough tax/regulation do a bit of damage to small businesses.
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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2012, 01:46:04 pm »
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The Swift Boat Attacks were completely baseless, while Obama actually said "You didn't build that," though his words were certainly ill-chosen and easily taken out of context.

Therefore, Option 1.
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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2012, 03:42:11 pm »
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Recently Obama made up a pants of fire lie about Romney's position on abortion.
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Vosem
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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2012, 03:45:01 pm »
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Outright lying is obviously more dishonest than taking someone sort of out of context.
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pepper11
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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2012, 04:45:07 pm »
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"You didn't build that" attacks - complete and intentional selective editing to distort what Obama actually said

As others have said, its not out of context. The RNC has a one minute ad simply playing the entire context. It is devastating and Obama knows it.

What other context do you suggest they include in the ad? Do you want the RNC to reserve 25 minutes of airtime and play Obama's entire speech in it's entirety?
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strangeland
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« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2012, 05:12:32 pm »
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The Swift Boat Attacks were completely baseless, while Obama actually said "You didn't build that," though his words were certainly ill-chosen and easily taken out of context.

Therefore, Option 1.

Yes, the latter is built up from a distortion, while the former is built up from nothing.
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zorkpolitics
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« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2012, 07:28:04 pm »
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Neither, both are accurate
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Alfred F. Jones
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« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2012, 09:29:25 pm »
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Neither, both are accurate

John Kerry is an American hero. Don't you dare disgrace him like that.
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There is a lot of humor to be mined from this as the mind of LBJ in the body of an 18 month old baby girl is quite hilarious.

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milhouse24
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« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2012, 10:09:15 pm »
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Neither, both are accurate

John Kerry is an American hero. Don't you dare disgrace him like that.

John Kerry was very controversial during the Vietnam hearings, "who will be the last man to die for a mistake?" and he was a huge Vietnam protester after his service, and he made a lot of enemies of the pro-Vietnam soldiers. 

I think Obama's statement is accurate in that he disrespects business owners and he places more importance on government support.  He sees government as an equal 50-50 partner in the success of private businesses.  While most businesses get some government help, many people would think that "blood sweat and tears" account for 80% of the success, while government may account for 20% of the success factors. 

What Obama said just sounds awkward.  He's almost angry that business owners don't acknowledge or appreciate government help and spreading the wealth to the poor/unions.  In that sense, Obama is speaking as a "Union leader" and not as a "business leader" with different goals.  Business leaders want to increase profits, while Union leaders want to increase salaries. 
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2012, 10:18:03 pm »
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Neither, both are accurate

John Kerry is an American hero. Don't you dare disgrace him like that.

He can "dare" to do whatever he likes.

I tend to believe the swiftboat attacks were baseless, but that's an opinion I'm entitled to. Just as zorkpolitics is entitled to his.
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Harry
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« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2012, 09:13:56 am »
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Neither, both are accurate

John Kerry is an American hero. Don't you dare disgrace him like that.

He can "dare" to do whatever he likes.

I tend to believe the swiftboat attacks were baseless, but that's an opinion I'm entitled to. Just as zorkpolitics is entitled to his.

"The Swiftboat Attacks were false and baseless" is a provable fact, not an opinion.
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Senator Polnut
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« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2012, 06:55:30 pm »
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One was an outright political hit-job, the other is a mark of desperation...
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