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Author Topic: Will there be a movement to deny Ryan communion?  (Read 2097 times)
Dereich
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« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2012, 01:23:01 am »
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Phil and realisticidealist, I'm kind of curious what you think of communion denial under any circumstances. My church is fine with communion to anyone who's a professing Christian. I really don't like the idea of cutting anyone off for some action as being "unworthy" or whatnot. I'm aware this rarely happens in the Catholic Church today but there are plenty that make a fuss about it, and then you have incidents like that priest in DC who denied it to a woman at her lesbian lover's funeral.

I'm sure your church doesn't believe in transubstantiation. A good Catholic receiving the Eucharist believes they are receiving what is literally the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Its what the whole Catholic mass is based around, and to take it flippantly and just give it out, especially to those who think its just some symbol or those defying the Lord by being in mortal sin would be to defile Jesus himself.
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« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2012, 01:56:26 am »
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Phil and realisticidealist, I'm kind of curious what you think of communion denial under any circumstances. My church is fine with communion to anyone who's a professing Christian. I really don't like the idea of cutting anyone off for some action as being "unworthy" or whatnot. I'm aware this rarely happens in the Catholic Church today but there are plenty that make a fuss about it, and then you have incidents like that priest in DC who denied it to a woman at her lesbian lover's funeral.

All Republican politicians should be denied communion since they believe in starving the poor and feeding the rich.

Can I have some of what your smoking? Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2012, 01:59:41 am »
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Phil and realisticidealist, I'm kind of curious what you think of communion denial under any circumstances. My church is fine with communion to anyone who's a professing Christian. I really don't like the idea of cutting anyone off for some action as being "unworthy" or whatnot. I'm aware this rarely happens in the Catholic Church today but there are plenty that make a fuss about it, and then you have incidents like that priest in DC who denied it to a woman at her lesbian lover's funeral.

I'm sure your church doesn't believe in transubstantiation. A good Catholic receiving the Eucharist believes they are receiving what is literally the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Its what the whole Catholic mass is based around, and to take it flippantly and just give it out, especially to those who think its just some symbol or those defying the Lord by being in mortal sin would be to defile Jesus himself.

I understand that that's the rationale, but my church believes in Real Presence and my tendency is to think that that procedure effects much more change on the sinner than it ever could on Jesus.
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« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2012, 02:16:58 am »
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I should note that Catholics don't really take the communion rules seriously anyway, like how many decline communion in Protestant churches? When I got baptized and my aunt was in attendance, I saw her take communion. So a double whammy, she was already attending and filming my baptism, which many Catholics would probably consider blasphemous (and admittedly many Lutherans as well), and taking communion in a church that's not only non-Catholic but memorialist. I also saw the Catholics on that side of the family taking communion at my cousin's Lutheran confirmation (attendance at the confirmation itself being not problematic and far less so than of my baptism, but taking communion at it still a huge no-no.)
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« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2012, 06:25:36 am »
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I should note that Catholics don't really take the communion rules seriously anyway, like how many decline communion in Protestant churches?

I do.

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she was already attending and filming my baptism, which many Catholics would probably consider blasphemous

You are seriously misinformed by what Catholics believe. There's nothing wrong with her attending your baptism, and likewise, for funerals, etc. My father's funeral was in the Episcopalian church - and I was heavily involved in the arrangements.
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« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2012, 06:31:51 am »
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Phil and realisticidealist, I'm kind of curious what you think of communion denial under any circumstances. My church is fine with communion to anyone who's a professing Christian. I really don't like the idea of cutting anyone off for some action as being "unworthy" or whatnot. I'm aware this rarely happens in the Catholic Church today but there are plenty that make a fuss about it, and then you have incidents like that priest in DC who denied it to a woman at her lesbian lover's funeral.

Mortal sin is mortal sin. Denial of communion requires persistant, manifest expression of grave sin.

1. Dissent from Church teachings.
2. Persistant - ie, the dissent has to be over a certain period of time.
3. Public - ie, the dissent has to be expressed where other people can hear.
4. Grave. It has to be over a matter that would be considered mortal sin. Public endorsement of abortion qualifies.
5. Other interventions have to have failed.

Denial of communion isn't the first step - but if other measures have been tried and haven't worked, then yes, denial of communion is appropriate.

And Phil - all the politicians who claim to be pro-abortion and 'Catholics in good standing' should be denied communion. ESPECIALLY Pelosi. Her dissent goes beyond 'being an irritating nuisance', to 'actively misleading others as to what the Church actually teaches.'
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« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2012, 10:16:16 am »
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There should be no denial of Communion, even to Protestants and non-Christians.  If God doesn't want someone taking Communion, he can sort it out in the afterlife.


But someone should try to deny it to Paul Ryan just to show conservative Catholics who like him how it feels.
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« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2012, 12:47:50 pm »
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You are seriously misinformed by what Catholics believe. There's nothing wrong with her attending your baptism, and likewise, for funerals, etc. My father's funeral was in the Episcopalian church - and I was heavily involved in the arrangements.

From what I understand the issue isn't so much that I was being baptized in a non-Catholic church but being baptized as an adult after I was as an infant, making it an "invalid sacrament". The Catholic church would be OK with attending the non-Catholic baptism of an adult that was never baptized as a baby.

There should be no denial of Communion, even to Protestants and non-Christians.

I would never take communion at a Catholic church anyway no matter what the rules were. No not because of gays or women's status or whatever but because I am simply not comfortable with the premise of transubstantiation and taking part in it.
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« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2012, 02:18:58 pm »
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There should be no denial of Communion, even to Protestants and non-Christians.  If God doesn't want someone taking Communion, he can sort it out in the afterlife.

1, Catholics believe in the Real Presence, many protestants do not. Ergo - it is inappropriate for them to take communion because they do not understand what they are doing.

2, God has made it very clear that Communion should only be taken in a worthy manner. This applies to everyone.

Is His word not good enough for you?
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« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2012, 02:21:56 pm »
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From what I understand the issue isn't so much that I was being baptized in a non-Catholic church but being baptized as an adult after I was as an infant, making it an "invalid sacrament". The Catholic church would be OK with attending the non-Catholic baptism of an adult that was never baptized as a baby.

Well, you never mentioned being baptised as an infant. Yes, you're correct here - that is a problem.

It's not so much that rebaptism is bad it's that it simply isn't necessary. Rebaptism denies the essential truth that there is one baptism for the forgiveness of sins in the Nicaean Creed.
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« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2012, 02:47:34 pm »
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1, Catholics believe in the Real Presence, many protestants do not. Ergo - it is inappropriate for them to take communion because they do not understand what they are doing.

Perhaps, but we should let God sort that out.


2, God has made it very clear that Communion should only be taken in a worthy manner. This applies to everyone.

Is His word not good enough for you?

No he hasn't, so no.  Nowhere in the Bible does it say who can and can't have Communion, and even if it did, it would just be some silliness written down by a person and put into the Bible cannon for political reasons centuries later.
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« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2012, 10:54:04 pm »
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The Catholic views on transubstantiation aren't in the Bible either and are basically just contrived by the church, especially it's excuse as to why other churches can't do it (something not claimed by other churches with some type of Real Presence theology), which is the biggest issue with it and why I can't accept it and why I would not take communion in any Catholic church regardless of it was "allowed". I'd have no problem taking communion in any church with open communion or open to all Christians.
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« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2012, 11:02:15 pm »
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The Catholic views on transubstantiation aren't in the Bible either and are basically just contrived by the church, especially it's excuse as to why other churches can't do it (something not claimed by other churches with some type of Real Presence theology), which is the biggest issue with it and why I can't accept it and why I would not take communion in any Catholic church regardless of it was "allowed". I'd have no problem taking communion in any church with open communion or open to all Christians.

Whether or not transubstantiation is in the Bible depends on what the meaning of 'is' is.
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« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2012, 11:05:34 pm »
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The Catholic views on transubstantiation aren't in the Bible either and are basically just contrived by the church, especially it's excuse as to why other churches can't do it (something not claimed by other churches with some type of Real Presence theology), which is the biggest issue with it and why I can't accept it and why I would not take communion in any Catholic church regardless of it was "allowed". I'd have no problem taking communion in any church with open communion or open to all Christians.

Whether or not transubstantiation is in the Bible depends on what the meaning of 'is' is.

You have to take biblical literalism to the extreme to say it is, which is somewhat ironic because biblical literalists reject it. But jmfcst said something that I totally agree, if it wasn't the actual body and blood at the Last Supper, it certainly isn't later.
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« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2012, 11:18:31 pm »
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You have to take biblical literalism to the extreme to say it is, which is somewhat ironic because biblical literalists reject it. But jmfcst said something that I totally agree, if it wasn't the actual body and blood at the Last Supper, it certainly isn't later.

There's also this passage:

Quote from:  John 6:25-59
25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
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« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2012, 11:29:21 am »
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Perhaps, but we should let God sort that out.

God has sorted it out. He killed someone in Acts who took it in an unworthy manner.

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No he hasn't, so no.  Nowhere in the Bible does it say who can and can't have Communion, and even if it did, it would just be some silliness written down by a person and put into the Bible cannon for political reasons centuries later.

One, it's 'canon', and not 'cannon'.

Two, yes it does. It reserves communion to the community of believers. You need to go read Acts.

Three, all the books of the bible were written within 60 years of Christ's death on a cross.
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« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2012, 11:32:21 am »
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The Catholic views on transubstantiation aren't in the Bible either and are basically just contrived by the church, especially it's excuse as to why other churches can't do it

As quoted earlier in the thread - yes, it's the literal translation of Scripture. Yes, the bread and wine becomes the body and blood of Christ.

Those who do not believe this should not take communion in the Catholic church.
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« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2012, 11:32:54 am »
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Three, all the books of the bible were written within 60 years of Christ's death on a cross.

I think you mean the New Testament... (or are using "were written within" to mean "were written by")
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« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2012, 10:59:31 am »
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I think you mean the New Testament... (or are using "were written within" to mean "were written by")

Yes, I meant the New Testament. Thanks for your correction!
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« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2012, 03:55:30 pm »
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Why?  As a Christian myself, I don't think anyone should be denied communion.  I believe it's he Catholic Church's business who they give it to, but Jesus gave Himself for everybody, and thus communion as a symbol is for everybody.  When He said, "Do this in remembrance of Me, " He didn't add, "unless you're pro-choice" or "unless you voted for Obama" or "unless you throw old ladies off of cliffs" or anything like that.  Jesus accepted everyone the way they were, and He always will.  Remember the words of Charlotte Elliot's old hymn, "Just As I Am".
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