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Question: Are you pro or anti gay marriage?
Pro Gay Marriage   -112 (81.8%)
Anti Gay Marriage   -25 (18.2%)
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Total Voters: 137

Author Topic: Gay Marriage: Pro or Anti?  (Read 7155 times)
futurepres
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« on: August 10, 2012, 06:58:05 pm »
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Are you pro or anti gay marriage?
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2012, 07:04:34 pm »
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There is no secular argument of substance against legalizing gay marriage. Even if I didn't have my own personal reasons for supporting it, there is no way I could be opposed. Of course I am in favor.
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realisticidealist
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« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2012, 07:27:03 pm »
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There are a lot of things that have gone wrong with how we treat marriage in this country, but letting gays marry I think is the least of them. I would be more comfortable with it if gay marriage supporters were half as concerned about the institution of marriage itself as they were about using the issue as a tool to route out "bigots" and feel superior about themselves. Not all are that way of course, but if often seems like it. It just seems like so many liberals care so much about gay marriage on one hand, but simultaneous talk out of the other side of their mouth about how marriage is an archaic institution that should be done away with and about how progressive they are for opposing this anachronistic holdover. You can't have it both ways.
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« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2012, 07:27:17 pm »
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I'm not a bigot, so I'm in favor of gay marriage.

EDIT: LOL at realisticidealist's fake outrage over "people feeling superior about themselves."
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Supersonic
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« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2012, 07:29:48 pm »
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Marriage is one of the most fundamental institutions in society, and allowing same sex couples to take part in it not only strengthens marriage itself but also strengthens families.
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realisticidealist
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« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2012, 07:31:05 pm »
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I'm not a bigot, so I'm in favor of gay marriage.

EDIT: LOL at realisticidealist's fake outrage over "people feeling superior about themselves."

You pretty much just proved my point. Thanks.
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« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2012, 07:32:18 pm »
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I'm not a bigot, so I'm in favor of gay marriage.

EDIT: LOL at realisticidealist's fake outrage over "people feeling superior about themselves."

You pretty much just proved my point. Thanks.

Give me one non-religious reason for not supporting gay marriage.
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« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2012, 07:35:28 pm »
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I'm really not "pro" any kind of marriage, but if two people want to do so that's fine and dandy.  Ideally, abolish the state and thus legally binding marriage.
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« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2012, 07:35:41 pm »
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Undecided.
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realisticidealist
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« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2012, 07:36:27 pm »
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I'm not a bigot, so I'm in favor of gay marriage.

EDIT: LOL at realisticidealist's fake outrage over "people feeling superior about themselves."

You pretty much just proved my point. Thanks.

Give me one non-religious reason for not supporting gay marriage.

Did I say I was against it? I did not; my comment was at its supporters, not at its merits. There are non-religious reasons for not supporting it, but there aren't any particularly good non-religious reasons.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2012, 07:39:22 pm »
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There are a lot of things that have gone wrong with how we treat marriage in this country, but letting gays marry I think is the least of them. I would be more comfortable with it if gay marriage supporters were half as concerned about the institution of marriage itself as they were about using the issue as a tool to route out "bigots" and feel superior about themselves. Not all are that way of course, but if often seems like it. It just seems like so many liberals care so much about gay marriage on one hand, but simultaneous talk out of the other side of their mouth about how marriage is an archaic institution that should be done away with and about how progressive they are for opposing this anachronistic holdover. You can't have it both ways.

I just don't understand what is really mutually exclusive about thinking marriage is a decayed institution while also supporting legalizing gay marriage. Of course, I don't personally think marriage is an archaic institution that should be tossed away and listening to that argument gets me all testy, but you can absolutely think it's a decaying institution while also thinking there's no reason not to legalize gay marriage.

I'm just not sure where this hostility you have for this issue comes from. You act like you support it, but you hate that you have absolutely no choice but to support it; like you're angry that other people force you to admit you're wrong about something. It's weird from someone usually so reasonable and wonky about everything.
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« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2012, 07:40:18 pm »
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I'm not a bigot, so I'm in favor of gay marriage.

EDIT: LOL at realisticidealist's fake outrage over "people feeling superior about themselves."

You pretty much just proved my point. Thanks.

Give me one non-religious reason for not supporting gay marriage.

Did I say I was against it? I did not; my comment was at its supporters, not at its merits. There are non-religious reasons for not supporting it, but there aren't any particularly good non-religious reasons.

Both sides feel superior to the other side on this issue. The difference is, those for gay marriage use logic and appeals to the concept of equal rights to defend their position, while those against use religious texts (which, you know, are Constitutionally prohibited from being injected into U.S. law)  and appeals to "moral values" that nobody actually ever had.
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« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2012, 07:59:31 pm »
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I'm not a bigot, so I'm in favor of gay marriage.

EDIT: LOL at realisticidealist's fake outrage over "people feeling superior about themselves."

You pretty much just proved my point. Thanks.

Give me one non-religious reason for not supporting gay marriage.

Did I say I was against it? I did not; my comment was at its supporters, not at its merits. There are non-religious reasons for not supporting it, but there aren't any particularly good non-religious reasons.

Both sides feel superior to the other side on this issue. The difference is, those for gay marriage use logic and appeals to the concept of equal rights to defend their position, while those against use religious texts (which, you know, are Constitutionally prohibited from being injected into U.S. law)  and appeals to "moral values" that nobody actually ever had.
There are plenty of people on both sides who don't feel superior to people on the other side.  Both sides use appeals to moral values - otherwise, it wouldn't arise so much passion. The Constitution doesn't prohibit anyone from arguing for a position based on their religion. There are secular arguments against gay marriage, it's just that these types of secular arguments are made in terms of tradition, natural law and other things that aren't highly respected in late modernity. Very few 18th century rationalists could have dreamed that gay marriage would be a rational position, for instance.

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realisticidealist
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« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2012, 08:15:02 pm »
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There are a lot of things that have gone wrong with how we treat marriage in this country, but letting gays marry I think is the least of them. I would be more comfortable with it if gay marriage supporters were half as concerned about the institution of marriage itself as they were about using the issue as a tool to route out "bigots" and feel superior about themselves. Not all are that way of course, but if often seems like it. It just seems like so many liberals care so much about gay marriage on one hand, but simultaneous talk out of the other side of their mouth about how marriage is an archaic institution that should be done away with and about how progressive they are for opposing this anachronistic holdover. You can't have it both ways.

I just don't understand what is really mutually exclusive about thinking marriage is a decayed institution while also supporting legalizing gay marriage. Of course, I don't personally think marriage is an archaic institution that should be tossed away and listening to that argument gets me all testy, but you can absolutely think it's a decaying institution while also thinking there's no reason not to legalize gay marriage.

I'm just not sure where this hostility you have for this issue comes from. You act like you support it, but you hate that you have absolutely no choice but to support it; like you're angry that other people force you to admit you're wrong about something. It's weird from someone usually so reasonable and wonky about everything.

The issue of marriage is one that's extremely important and personal to me. I highly value everything that I believe it entails and represents: love, commitment, sacrifice, faith, etc. I believe it is the highest and purest form of love, to lay down your life for another and to never look back. That's what I believe it's meant to be. I've seen so many people, my parents and grandparents and entire family included, make poor decisions and end their marriages over petty things, things that responsible people should communicate with each other about and work out. For supposedly being teams, people just don't understand that means you sometimes have to lose, and that that's ok; they don't see the greater good. They fail because they don't understand what it means to succeed.

I've lived through the divorce of my parents, and I don't know if there's a much worse non-abusive thing you can do to a child. Divorce is like a death, a death that takes with it all comfort, protection, and innocence of others as a simple externality. It's the very antithesis of the values I most deeply believe in, the death of love itself in the broadest and most encompassing sense, and it's so often for such trivial reasons. I can't understand it. Not one bit.

When I see people getting married without thought or planning, without care and consideration, I see people who don't take marriage seriously. I see people who are implicitly opening themselves up to that pain, a pain that never dies, and I see people who value so little what I cherish so much. Conversely, when I see people trash marriage as archaic, I see people who so often don't have the wherewithal to personify what I believe are the highest values people should strive for. I see people who want the benefits of relationships without the sacrifice and the commitment. I see people who are scared because they might get hurt when that pain could be as easily avoided by communication as by fleeing from the challenge. What I see is pettiness, and I harms my faith in humanity.

Gay marriage should come from this same place as straight marriage. It should come from the same values. But when I see the same people who make a fuss about marriage equality make fun of people who marry young, or people who get married at all, or sometimes even of monogamy (or monandry) itself, I don't understand why they would want to go through all the trouble of expanding something they fundamentally disagree with. Why would something think, "you know people shouldn't get married" and then "we should let gays get married" unless they had some sort of sadistic streak toward gays? Either you think marriage is a bad thing or you don't. I'm also not a fan of how marriage is couched in terms of rights; I don't think anyone has a right to a marriage, but rather that it should be a privilege. That's probably a purely textual matter, though. At the same time, I think conservatives have fallen for a red herring on this issue, instead of focusing on actually strengthening marriage; they themselves are as much to blame as anyone.

This issue comes up so incredibly much, and over and over and over again, the exact same arguments are made. The same incompatiblities come up in the discourse. People who can't possibly see the other side of the issue, and who so easily denigrate those who do. Gay marriage supporters are heathens and gay marriage deniers are bigots, sure whatever. It's poisonous is what it is. I hate the issue because of what it does to people; as someone who inately dislikes conflict, I honestly wish it would just go away. The government could recognize whatever and churches could recognize whatever. Maybe then people who stop hating each other over something so petty as a definition. Probably not.

There's no reason gays can't fulfill everything I described, just as there is not a reason why straights can't. I wish everyone would just do what they promise. I wish people weren't so self-centered about things that don't just involve themselves. But that is not this world.

Perhaps my issues are more sociological than political. But is there really any difference?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 08:16:41 pm by realisticidealist »Logged

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« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2012, 09:09:18 pm »
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There is no secular argument of substance against legalizing gay marriage. Even if I didn't have my own personal reasons for supporting it, there is no way I could be opposed. Of course I am in favor.
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Goldwater
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« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2012, 10:31:44 pm »
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Marriage is one of the most fundamental institutions in society, and allowing same sex couples to take part in it not only strengthens marriage itself but also strengthens families.
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« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2012, 12:29:56 am »
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Undecided.

Huh? I remember you cheerleading pretty hard when New York legalized it and bashing North Carolina and krazen after that vote.

As for me, pro obviously.
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« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2012, 12:48:32 am »
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Undecided.

Huh? I remember you cheerleading pretty hard when New York legalized it and bashing North Carolina and krazen after that vote.

As for me, pro obviously.

I'm joking, of course. Wink
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« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2012, 12:55:18 am »
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Undecided.

Huh? I remember you cheerleading pretty hard when New York legalized it and bashing North Carolina and krazen after that vote.

As for me, pro obviously.

I'm joking, of course. Wink

Well sh!t son, I thought you were a Moderate Hero for a moment there.
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« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2012, 01:20:28 am »
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realisticidealist's post made me vom in my mouth.

I support the right for gays to marry. I don't necessarily support them getting married on a whim or marrying for religious reasons. I want them to have civil rights because I believe that it's of the utmost importance to treat everyone equally. This isn't an awkward position because I have a libertarian streak. Even if I disagree with someone's actions, I will enthusiastically argue for them to have the right to take those actions. It's important if you believe in a free society.

It saddens me that you'd think this argument is about marriage. It isn't. It's about people not having the principle of equality under the law extended to them. Until the LGBT community receives this, I'll continue to fight for them.
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« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2012, 02:35:18 am »
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I don't support it.
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« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2012, 05:29:43 am »
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I'm totally and categorically opposed to marriage of any kind, but I suppose it is possible a gay would nag, henpeck, and indulge in jealousy a bit less.  So yes, as a lesser of two evils - A Marriage Gay!
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« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2012, 08:30:18 am »
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In a perfect world, the right to a civil union would be extended to both straight and gay people and marriage would remain a purely religious institution that isn't state-sanctioned. In this world, pro-gay marriage.

I don't support it.

Care to elaborate?
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« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2012, 08:51:04 am »
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In a perfect world, the right to a civil union would be extended to both straight and gay people and marriage would remain a purely religious institution that isn't state-sanctioned. In this world, pro-gay marriage.

I don't support it.

Care to elaborate?

Sadly I'm just a good, old fashioned, straight laced conservative. I cannot support gay marriage as marriage has been the same for time immemorial, and thus I don't think its in our power, or that it is our right to change that.

I don't want to offend anyone, and I probably won't convince anyone who supports gay marriage, so don't bother replying to this post.
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« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2012, 08:51:39 am »
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In a perfect world, the right to a civil union would be extended to both straight and gay people and marriage would remain a purely religious institution that isn't state-sanctioned. In this world, pro-gay marriage.

I don't support it.

Care to elaborate?

Does that also count for siblings and people living in polygamous relationships? "Marriage Equality", by definition of the term, obviously involves much more than gay and lesbian couples.
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