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Author Topic: Will there be a movement to deny Ryan communion?  (Read 2048 times)
Harry
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« on: August 11, 2012, 04:34:30 pm »
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Fair is fair...
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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2012, 04:35:15 pm »
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No, because he does, indeed, follow the Catholic Church's backwards-ass social morality.
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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2012, 04:47:41 pm »
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No, because he does, indeed, follow the Catholic Church's backwards-ass social morality.

Have you heard the Paul Ryan Personal Dictionary definition of the phrase 'preferential option for the poor'?
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« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2012, 04:55:26 pm »
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The US Conference of Catholic Bishops, or at least one organ thereof, condemned his budget. The Catholic Church does not, by and large, institutionally adhere to Randian economic rhetoric or Austrian/Chicago economic theory.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 08:34:45 am by Mr. Morden »Logged

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Harry
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« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2012, 09:06:07 pm »
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No, because he does, indeed, follow the Catholic Church's backwards-ass social morality.

The US Council of Bishops, which is extremely conservative for a Catholic organization, strongly condemned the Ryan budget.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2012, 09:15:00 pm »
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Surprised it took you this long to show your bitterness, Harry! And don't call me biased. You know I thought the movement to deny Kerry communion was wrong. Same with the denial for any other Pro Choice official.

That being said, can people that know better stop calling the Conference of Bishops a "very conservative organization?" Socially and theologically, yes. Economically, not so much. That goes for the Church in general. It's moderate overall. So enough with the "Ryan's own kind even think he's too extreme!"
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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2012, 09:25:05 pm »
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The US Conference of Catholic Bishops, or at least one organ thereof, condemned his budget. The Catholic Church does not, by and large, institutionally adhere to Randian economic rhetoric or Austrian/Chicago economic theory.

The Church is unsound on economics I agree (no, they go way beyond turning the cold shoulder on Rand and some of the Austrian kooks, but it is sad to see you add "Chicago" to that noxious mix, when I went there, and actually knew many of the illustrious U of C "perps"), but you must know, as this WASP near atheist knows, that that is not the kind of thing for which one is denied communion. To go there, you need to have sinned on matters closer to the heart. Heck did they ever ex-communicate Hitler, or deny communion to any of the Fascist thugs?  Unfair sure, but I don't think being a sociopath in the public square or otherwise is a basis for denying communion. TJ is needed here of course.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 08:35:35 am by Mr. Morden »Logged
realisticidealist
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« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2012, 09:29:05 pm »
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The Bishops have called out Ryan both for his budget and for his obsession with Rand, but he's not going to get denied communion because he isn't advocating as a representative for a mortal sin. That usually only happens for pro-choice Catholic pols.
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« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2012, 09:35:56 pm »
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Ryan has clarified his feelings about Rand in a religious context, for the record.
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« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2012, 09:41:24 pm »
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Ryan denounced the Austrian cult long ago, Randism and all.  He's a Thomas Aquinas fan, now.
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realisticidealist
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« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2012, 10:02:18 pm »
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No, because he does, indeed, follow the Catholic Church's backwards-ass social morality.

Have you heard the Paul Ryan Personal Dictionary definition of the phrase 'preferential option for the poor'?

No, but I have heard the phrase 'ignorant, socially-unaware, anti-choice, homophobic dipstick'.

Or in other words, Catholic.

So brave. You must be so proud of yourself, taking on an evil, giant montrosity like the Catholic Church with your generic anti-Christian sentiments.

Let me add a little substance to your strawman. First, ignorant? Really? The Catholic Church is one of the most pro-science religious groups in the world. No other religious organization employs scientists with doctorates anywhere close to the ballpark of the Catholic Church. The Pope has his own team of scientists. The Catholic Church has been at the forefront of scientific discovery throughout history because it believes that science illuminates the creation of God. A Catholic priest originated the idea of the Big Bang theory. A Catholic friar described the mechanism for natural selection through genes. The Catholic Church accepts evolution, has discredited young-Earth creationism, and has actively helped in the search for extraterrestrial life. The Catholic Church has built more schools and universities that focus on science than any other institution in the history of the world.

Socially unaware? What does that even mean? The Catholic Church is the most socially conscious institution in the world. They've built more hospitals and orphanages than anyone in history. They actively perform and call others to perform incredible services for the poor. They have numerous charitable organizations that actually help people, moreso than the government could ever do.

Anti-choice? You could say that. I'm not going to argue abortion here. What's important is that the Church believes that abortion is wrong not because they want to "suppress women" or what have you, but because they genuinely care about ever human life. They are consistently pro-life in their teachings. The Church has condemned countless wars, condemned the death penalty, and have advocated for universal health care. On top of that, the actually have support programs for women who do choose to have their children. They have adoption services, counseling services, and support programs to make sure women don't have to choose to kill their children. They walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

Homophobic? Please. Just because the Church doesn't accept gay marriage doesn't mean they hate gays. Far from it. Unlike many conservative protestant churches, the Church doesn't believe being gay is a choice, believes that trying to change people from being gay is fundamentally an attack on their human dignity, and believes that you should treat everyone, regardless of sexual orientation equally. The Church believes in a theological basis for marriage that reflects the union of God and the Church and that sexual actions should be conducted out of sacrificial, self-giving love that is open to the aforementioned value of life. That doesnít leave room for gay marriage, but itís not because they hate gay people. By their view, saying gays can't get married is not any different than saying men can't give birth; it's definitionally impossible. Their position isnít going to satisfy liberals and libertarians, but they donít care about that. Why should they?
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Harry
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« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2012, 10:16:16 pm »
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Great post from realisticidealist, although I don't gloss over the Church's anti-gay stance in real life.  Not that I ever have to, since most Mississippians see the Church as pro-gay by comparison.
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« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2012, 10:54:56 pm »
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Of course, he wouldn't be a catholic politician on the national level without this happening.
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« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2012, 11:03:57 pm »
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Surprised it took you this long to show your bitterness, Harry! And don't call me biased. You know I thought the movement to deny Kerry communion was wrong. Same with the denial for any other Pro Choice official.

That being said, can people that know better stop calling the Conference of Bishops a "very conservative organization?" Socially and theologically, yes. Economically, not so much. That goes for the Church in general. It's moderate overall. So enough with the "Ryan's own kind even think he's too extreme!"

I'm Catholic and I think he's very extreme and a dangerous person.
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« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2012, 11:18:54 pm »
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Phil and realisticidealist, I'm kind of curious what you think of communion denial under any circumstances. My church is fine with communion to anyone who's a professing Christian. I really don't like the idea of cutting anyone off for some action as being "unworthy" or whatnot. I'm aware this rarely happens in the Catholic Church today but there are plenty that make a fuss about it, and then you have incidents like that priest in DC who denied it to a woman at her lesbian lover's funeral.
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mondale84
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« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2012, 11:23:12 pm »
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Phil and realisticidealist, I'm kind of curious what you think of communion denial under any circumstances. My church is fine with communion to anyone who's a professing Christian. I really don't like the idea of cutting anyone off for some action as being "unworthy" or whatnot. I'm aware this rarely happens in the Catholic Church today but there are plenty that make a fuss about it, and then you have incidents like that priest in DC who denied it to a woman at her lesbian lover's funeral.

All Republican politicians should be denied communion since they believe in starving the poor and feeding the rich.
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« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2012, 11:27:55 pm »
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No, because he does, indeed, follow the Catholic Church's backwards-ass social morality.

Have you heard the Paul Ryan Personal Dictionary definition of the phrase 'preferential option for the poor'?

Eh, religious people stopped following this compassion of Jesus thing. Compassion is mainly from atheists, these days.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/05/01/study-atheists-more-compassionate-than-highly-religious-people/
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realisticidealist
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« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2012, 11:29:18 pm »
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Phil and realisticidealist, I'm kind of curious what you think of communion denial under any circumstances. My church is fine with communion to anyone who's a professing Christian. I really don't like the idea of cutting anyone off for some action as being "unworthy" or whatnot. I'm aware this rarely happens in the Catholic Church today but there are plenty that make a fuss about it, and then you have incidents like that priest in DC who denied it to a woman at her lesbian lover's funeral.

Assuming we're talking about politicians here, I'm not a fan of it, though I can understand why they do it. Catholic communion is a sign of communion with the whole Church, so I can understand if someone openly and majorly advocating against the views of the Church being denied, but it's not like they deny communion to lay people in a state of mortal sin (I presume because it would be impossible to enforce). For me, the fact that it's so arbitrarily enforced makes it seem like its just a political statement by some random bishop. I'd rather they either came up with a standard and enforced it or didn't bother. If they came out and said that all Catholic politicians who endorsed abortion rights were to be denied communion and were in a state of mortal sin, I'd be fine with that, but until then, I don't support it.
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« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2012, 11:32:54 pm »
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The US Conference of Catholic Bishops, or at least one organ thereof, condemned his budget. The Catholic Church does not, by and large, institutionally adhere to Randian economic rhetoric or Austrian/Chicago economic theory.

The Church is unsound on economics I agree (no, they go way beyond turning the cold shoulder on Rand and some of the Austrian kooks, but it is sad to see you add "Chicago" to that noxious mix, when I went there, and actually knew many of the illustrious U of C "perps"), but you must know, as this WASP near atheist knows, that that is not the kind of thing for which one is denied communion. To go there, you need to have sinned on matters closer to the heart. Heck did they ever ex-communicate Hitler, or deny communion to any of the Fascist thugs?  Unfair sure, but I don't think being a sociopath in the public square or otherwise is a basis for denying communion. TJ is needed here of course.

I'm aware of the policy on this and I doubt that there will be any serious talk of denying Ryan communion, but I simply had to correct Townsend's statement to the effect that Ryan's public life is entirely compatible with what the Church teaches should be advocated or ought to be able to be advocated under ideal circumstances, ne? I'm sorry for implying a greater link between the Chicago and Austrian schools than in fact exists; obviously one is a good deal more reasonable, rigorous, and real than the other, although from where I'm standing there isn't a huge amount of ideological difference between them (nor indeed is there between me and the Church, on this particular complex of issues).
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 08:36:49 am by Mr. Morden »Logged

A shameless agrarian collectivist with no respect for private property or individual rights.

His idea of freedom is - it is a bad thing and should be stopped at all costs.

Nathan-land.  As much fun as watching paint dry... literally.
realisticidealist
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« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2012, 11:33:48 pm »
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No, because he does, indeed, follow the Catholic Church's backwards-ass social morality.

Have you heard the Paul Ryan Personal Dictionary definition of the phrase 'preferential option for the poor'?

Eh, religious people stopped following this compassion of Jesus thing. Compassion is mainly from atheists, these days.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/05/01/study-atheists-more-compassionate-than-highly-religious-people/

That study just says that atheists are most apt to do emotionally-stimulated personal random acts of kindness. There are many types of compassion and charity beyond simply this, though I commend them for it.
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« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2012, 11:44:27 pm »
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No, that isn't going anywhere. In order to deny someone communion the Church has to have reason to believe that person is living in a state of mortal sin. When questionable, the person is to be given the benefit of the doubt. For a private citizen you practically have to walk up to the priest before Mass and say "Hey, I'm in a state of mortal sin!" to be denied communion (and even then as the Archdiocese of Washington lesbian-at-a-funeral scandal taught us all) the priest is supposed to tell the person he/she will be denied communion in private before doing so at Mass.

For a politician to be denied communion, he must endorse some grave action to be taken or oppose outlawing it. Pope Benedict back when he was Cardinal Ratzinger wrote that politicians who support legal abortion or euthanasia can be denied communion but it is determined on a case by case basis by the politican's local bishop. Some bishops have done this and others have not. It is far from a settled matter and really can't be without understanding the politician's intentions.

On the basis of economics it would extremely difficult to deny someone communion because the intentions quickly become so complex it would be nearly impossible for a bishop to say conclusively a politician intends to allow or commit some sort of grave sin. Abortion is an incredibly simple issue in the Catholic Church to begin with, while economics is not. And even if it were, the issue involved may not constitute grave matter, while abortion clearly does.
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« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2012, 11:51:03 pm »
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Support for capital punishment and wars doesn't constitute grave matter?
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« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2012, 11:53:54 pm »
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Support for capital punishment and wars doesn't constitute grave matter?

I think the difference there is that there are limited circumstances when the Church is ok with war and the death penalty (eg repelling an invasion or killing someone who is a persisent and continuous threat to the lives of others and there is no means of holding them), whereas the Church is never ok with abortion.
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« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2012, 12:16:37 am »
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Support for capital punishment

No. Pope John Paul II stated that "the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being is always gravely immoral." (emphasis added). He went on to say that capital punishment should not be used in most circumstances when other means can be. The position of the current pope is that capital punishment should be abolished; however, the Magisterium stops short of completely forbidding capital punishment under all circumstances.

Now, I personally think it becomes somewhat questionable to take the very narrow room in the Magisterium to advocate for capital punishment in the West, but the Church (barely) stops short of putting on the same level as abortion.

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and wars doesn't constitute grave matter?

It depends. Pope John Paul II condemned the Iraq War but did not state that all those who support or fought the war have committed a grave sin. There was a Romanian bishop who made headlines for declaring that, but Rome remained silent. The main reason for this is that despite having opposed beginning the war, the Church likely still favored the US over Saddam, such that any support for the US was not morally wrong. Again, it becomes rather complicated.

Also, the Catholic Church teaches that war can be justified under some circumstances, such as the War in Afghanistan.
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« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2012, 12:52:12 am »
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Coming from someone who was raised Catholic, I think most (if not all) Catholic politicians would be denied Communion.
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