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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: National University and General Education Reform bill (Law'd)  (Read 2909 times)
GM Napoleon
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« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2012, 04:33:33 pm »
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That amendment just guts the bill. I would love to hear Senator Ben argue in favor of for-profit universities. I also object to removing our involvement in determining the location; this is federal money.

How is this for-profit universities?  I'm not a fan of them to begin with, and will happily adjust the language, but I don't like us taxing tuition that schools receive - that money belongs to the institution.  And as for the location, I don't want to force regions to locate a school in a particular place of "economic distress."

This isn't forcing regions to do anything. We are using federal dollars to build new, first rate universities in areas of economic distress so that we can stop the bleeding and reenergize areas in decline with bright and youthful people. The regions are given the option to recommend the city based on their own public education system and what areas could use the most help.

The tax only applies to predatory for-profit universities. Their students are already ineligible to receive student loans.
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When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
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I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
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« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2012, 04:41:27 pm »
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This isn't forcing regions to do anything. We are using federal dollars to build new, first rate universities in areas of economic distress so that we can stop the bleeding and reenergize areas in decline with bright and youthful people. The regions are given the option to recommend the city based on their own public education system and what areas could use the most help.

The tax only applies to predatory for-profit universities. Their students are already ineligible to receive student loans.

Apologies, my mistake.  I'm not as up to date on our education laws as I should be.

I withdraw my previous amendment, and introduce this one:
An amendment:
Quote
National University and General Education Reform bill
Section One: National University System
1.   $35 million shall be appropriated per each region for the construction of a federally-operated university.
2.   $15 million shall be appropriated per each region for the hiring of faculty and accommodating the local community.
3.   Each regional government shall submit a location of economic distress or decline that would benefit from the presence of a strong university campus to the Secretary of Internal Affairs, who can approve or deny the location.
4.  If the Secretary of Internal Affairs denies the location, the region can either nominate a new location or petition the Senate to overrule the Secretary, which can be done by a majority vote of the Senate.
5.   If a regional government does not offer a location, these funds will be offered to another region to choose a location.
6.   The addition of future campuses shall be made possible at the request of the Secretary of Internal Affairs and approved by majority vote of the Government Oversight and Reform Committee Senate.

Section Two: Repeal of Tuition Tax
1.   The tuition tax established in Section 6 of the ‘Education Reform Act of 2007’ is hereby repealed.

Section Three: Additional Regulations and Reforms
1.   A 50% tax shall be placed on all revenue a college or university receives from tuition or fees.
2.   This tax shall be waived should a college or university’s student population have 5% or greater receiving federal student loan assistance.
3.   $2 billion shall be distributed among the regions by the Secretary of Internal Affairs for the purpose of adding more vocational and career training courses to local community colleges.

Section Four: Secondary School Reform and Assistance
1.   $1 billion shall be distributed among the regions by the Secretary of Internal Affairs for the purpose of adding more arts and culture courses to secondary schools.
2.   $1 billion shall be distributed among the regions by the Secretary of Internal Affairs for the purpose of adding more vocational and career training courses to secondary schools.
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GM Napoleon
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« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2012, 04:44:03 pm »
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I have no opinion on your new amendment. Whatever the Senate feels appropriate, I will support. I initially went with the Committee to give it some direct responsibilities, and I thought it might be onerous to get the whole Senate to vote on something particularly minor.
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When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
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benconstine
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« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2012, 04:45:23 pm »
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I feel that adding new campuses is an important issue, and something the Senate should address as a body.
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GM Napoleon
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« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2012, 04:46:26 pm »
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I feel that adding new campuses is an important issue, and something the Senate should address as a body.

That is fair. Do the Senators believe the funds assigned in sections 3 and 4 are adequate?
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When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
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benconstine
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« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2012, 04:47:31 pm »
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That is fair. Do the Senators believe the funds assigned in sections 3 and 4 are adequate?

I wouldn't mind increasing them, but I'dl like to hear from the GM and SoIA first.
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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2012, 07:33:56 pm »
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Quote from: Amendment 50:29 by Ben
National University and General Education Reform bill
Section One: National University System
1.   $35 million shall be appropriated per each region for the construction of a federally-operated university.
2.   $15 million shall be appropriated per each region for the hiring of faculty and accommodating the local community.
3.   Each regional government shall submit a location of economic distress or decline that would benefit from the presence of a strong university campus to the Secretary of Internal Affairs, who can approve or deny the location.
4.  If the Secretary of Internal Affairs denies the location, the region can either nominate a new location or petition the Senate to overrule the Secretary, which can be done by a majority vote of the Senate.
5.   If a regional government does not offer a location, these funds will be offered to another region to choose a location.
6.   The addition of future campuses shall be made possible at the request of the Secretary of Internal Affairs and approved by majority vote of the Government Oversight and Reform Committee Senate.

Section Two: Repeal of Tuition Tax
1.   The tuition tax established in Section 6 of the ‘Education Reform Act of 2007’ is hereby repealed.

Section Three: Additional Regulations and Reforms
1.   A 50% tax shall be placed on all revenue a college or university receives from tuition or fees.
2.   This tax shall be waived should a college or university’s student population have 5% or greater receiving federal student loan assistance.
3.   $2 billion shall be distributed among the regions by the Secretary of Internal Affairs for the purpose of adding more vocational and career training courses to local community colleges.

Section Four: Secondary School Reform and Assistance
1.   $1 billion shall be distributed among the regions by the Secretary of Internal Affairs for the purpose of adding more arts and culture courses to secondary schools.
2.   $1 billion shall be distributed among the regions by the Secretary of Internal Affairs for the purpose of adding more vocational and career training courses to secondary schools.

Sponsor Feedback: No Clear Response Entered
Status: Waiting for Clarification
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LastVoter
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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2012, 07:34:08 pm »
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How much would we need in funds to make the public university system totally single payer?
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« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2012, 09:29:02 pm »
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How much would we need in funds to make the public university system totally single payer?

Including public schools in the states, like UVA, UNC, etc?  Or just the universities created in this bill?
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« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2012, 09:40:05 pm »
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How much would we need in funds to make the public university system totally single payer?

Including public schools in the states, like UVA, UNC, etc?  Or just the universities created in this bill?
Yea Including schools like that and community colleges. Not including private or for-profit colleges. Also everybody only gets 1 shot at free education, the second time they have to pay.
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benconstine
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« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2012, 09:43:53 pm »
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I can't imagine that being fiscally feasible.
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GM Napoleon
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« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2012, 09:46:15 pm »
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How much would we need in funds to make the public university system totally single payer?

Including public schools in the states, like UVA, UNC, etc?  Or just the universities created in this bill?
Yea Including schools like that and community colleges. Not including private or for-profit colleges. Also everybody only gets 1 shot at free education, the second time they have to pay.

Enough to buy off at least six other Senators to override my veto, on top of whatever other costs.
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When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
Warner for Senate '14
benconstine
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« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2012, 09:51:16 pm »
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I don't see an amendment like that passing.
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« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2012, 10:01:45 pm »
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http://www.fastweb.com/financial-aid/articles/2589-total-college-debt-now-exceeds-total-credit-card-debt
Well based on this that total college debt is growing at about $50 billion a year, so maybe in the range of 150 to 200? That seems to me fiscally realistic, if you impose some controls like I suggested, and end the federal loans for people that fail out of college/go to private colleges.
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GM Napoleon
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« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2012, 10:04:36 pm »
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http://www.fastweb.com/financial-aid/articles/2589-total-college-debt-now-exceeds-total-credit-card-debt
Well based on this that total college debt is growing at about $50 billion a year, so maybe in the range of 150 to 200? That seems to me fiscally realistic, if you impose some controls like I suggested, and end the federal loans for people that fail out of college/go to private colleges.

I think you are significantly underestimating the costs of this sort of thing, but if you want to get creative and find some ways to lower future or even current student debt we can look at those and see what works.
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When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
LastVoter
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« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2012, 10:08:47 pm »
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http://www.fastweb.com/financial-aid/articles/2589-total-college-debt-now-exceeds-total-credit-card-debt
Well based on this that total college debt is growing at about $50 billion a year, so maybe in the range of 150 to 200? That seems to me fiscally realistic, if you impose some controls like I suggested, and end the federal loans for people that fail out of college/go to private colleges.

I think you are significantly underestimating the costs of this sort of thing, but if you want to get creative and find some ways to lower future or even current student debt we can look at those and see what works.
Well the other way would be to estimate the coast would be to use the grants that are given out to low income students and multiply that by about 10, and that would be about $400 billion.
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« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2012, 10:40:46 pm »
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Ben's amendment is friendly.

Sorry I have been AWOL. I think a national university system would be great for Atlasia and increase the amount of institutions available where students can get a quality education at a lower price. These universities will also be engines of innovation and will provide more funding and facilities for research. This will be in addition to the same services already being provided by our regional universities. No funding is being taken away from them and this is not a competition with them.

As for for-profit universities, I think on the whole they are bad for students. Our students could learn the same things from a more reputable place at a lower cost. This is why funding is being increased for vocational training in secondary schools and community colleges.
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2012, 07:00:01 pm »
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Quote from: Amendment 50:29 by Ben
National University and General Education Reform bill
Section One: National University System
1.   $35 million shall be appropriated per each region for the construction of a federally-operated university.
2.   $15 million shall be appropriated per each region for the hiring of faculty and accommodating the local community.
3.   Each regional government shall submit a location of economic distress or decline that would benefit from the presence of a strong university campus to the Secretary of Internal Affairs, who can approve or deny the location.
4.  If the Secretary of Internal Affairs denies the location, the region can either nominate a new location or petition the Senate to overrule the Secretary, which can be done by a majority vote of the Senate.
5.   If a regional government does not offer a location, these funds will be offered to another region to choose a location.
6.   The addition of future campuses shall be made possible at the request of the Secretary of Internal Affairs and approved by majority vote of the Government Oversight and Reform Committee Senate.

Section Two: Repeal of Tuition Tax
1.   The tuition tax established in Section 6 of the ‘Education Reform Act of 2007’ is hereby repealed.

Section Three: Additional Regulations and Reforms
1.   A 50% tax shall be placed on all revenue a college or university receives from tuition or fees.
2.   This tax shall be waived should a college or university’s student population have 5% or greater receiving federal student loan assistance.
3.   $2 billion shall be distributed among the regions by the Secretary of Internal Affairs for the purpose of adding more vocational and career training courses to local community colleges.

Section Four: Secondary School Reform and Assistance
1.   $1 billion shall be distributed among the regions by the Secretary of Internal Affairs for the purpose of adding more arts and culture courses to secondary schools.
2.   $1 billion shall be distributed among the regions by the Secretary of Internal Affairs for the purpose of adding more vocational and career training courses to secondary schools.

Sponsor Feedback: Friendly
Status: Senators have 24 hours to object.


I was getting ready to bitch at Scott's vague answer then I remembered that Sbane is the primary sponsor. Tongue
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GM Napoleon
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« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2012, 07:05:27 pm »
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Scott hasn't posted in this thread since Ben posted his amendment, Mr. PPT. Tongue
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When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
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« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2012, 07:08:27 pm »
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I support Ben's amendment, FTR.
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2012, 07:10:46 pm »
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Well you see the pain from my knee injury has made me delirious to the point that I can't tell the difference between Mittens and Old Bill now. Tongue
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« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2012, 11:39:05 pm »
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That amendment just guts the bill. I would love to hear Senator Ben argue in favor of for-profit universities. I also object to removing our involvement in determining the location; this is federal money.

How is this for-profit universities?  I'm not a fan of them to begin with, and will happily adjust the language, but I don't like us taxing tuition that schools receive - that money belongs to the institution.  And as for the location, I don't want to force regions to locate a school in a particular place of "economic distress."

This isn't forcing regions to do anything. We are using federal dollars to build new, first rate universities in areas of economic distress so that we can stop the bleeding and reenergize areas in decline with bright and youthful people. The regions are given the option to recommend the city based on their own public education system and what areas could use the most help.

The tax only applies to predatory for-profit universities. Their students are already ineligible to receive student loans.
I do not see anything in this bill that restricts this to for-profit universities.   This section would also apply to colleges that do not accept federal student loans for philosophical reasons and to many community colleges that do not offer these loans out of fear of default liability. 
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GM Napoleon
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« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2012, 11:52:11 pm »
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We could put in a specific reference to the universities affected by my previous bill, then, to clear things up.
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When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
shua
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« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2012, 12:02:45 am »
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We could put in a specific reference to the universities affected by my previous bill, then, to clear things up.

Is the purpose to dissuade students from attending for-profit colleges by making it more expensive?
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GM Napoleon
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« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2012, 12:04:26 am »
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We could put in a specific reference to the universities affected by my previous bill, then, to clear things up.

Is the purpose to dissuade students from attending for-profit colleges by making it more expensive?

Sort of. We would rather see these institutions change their status than drive then out of existence.
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When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
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