SENATE BILL: National University and General Education Reform bill (Law'd)
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  SENATE BILL: National University and General Education Reform bill (Law'd)
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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: National University and General Education Reform bill (Law'd)  (Read 7085 times)
Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2012, 08:35:35 PM »

Where are we here at this point?
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benconstine
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« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2012, 08:38:10 PM »

I'd like Shua to tell us if the money currently in the bill is sufficient.
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shua
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« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2012, 10:07:18 PM »

I'd like Shua to tell us if the money currently in the bill is sufficient.
Not really, no.  The $35 million is enough to construct a medium-size academic building.  Community colleges can cost about 5 times that much. 
I'm not sure what is meant by "accommodating the local community," but $15 million for faculty is enough for a small university of a few thousand students (though funding for non-faculty staff will need to be provided somewhere as well).
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2012, 10:09:23 PM »

I'd like Shua to tell us if the money currently in the bill is sufficient.
Not really, no.  The $35 million is enough to construct a medium-size academic building.  Community colleges can cost about 5 times that much. 
I'm not sure what is meant by "accommodating the local community," but $15 million for faculty is enough for a small university of a few thousand students (though funding for non-faculty staff will need to be provided somewhere as well).

Would it be possible to reduce these costs, somehow?
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Sbane
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« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2012, 11:51:39 PM »

I'd like Shua to tell us if the money currently in the bill is sufficient.
Not really, no.  The $35 million is enough to construct a medium-size academic building.  Community colleges can cost about 5 times that much. 
I'm not sure what is meant by "accommodating the local community," but $15 million for faculty is enough for a small university of a few thousand students (though funding for non-faculty staff will need to be provided somewhere as well).

Could you let us know how much money would need to be appropriated to build these universities.
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shua
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« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2012, 01:25:48 AM »

How much money it will cost depends on how big you want it to be, what you want it to accomplish, which I don't see spelled out in this bill. Really you could build a small $35 million university in each region serving a few hundred students, if you want.  I'm just not sure what the purpose is.
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Sbane
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« Reply #56 on: August 24, 2012, 03:56:26 PM »

I was thinking a large research university. 20,000 undergraduate students and about 8,000 graduate students.
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shua
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« Reply #57 on: August 24, 2012, 11:24:37 PM »

I was thinking a large research university. 20,000 undergraduate students and about 8,000 graduate students.
I'd estimate a cost of about $1 billion in construction cost, and $700 million in operating expenses and salaries.
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Frodo
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« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2012, 12:28:57 AM »

I was thinking a large research university. 20,000 undergraduate students and about 8,000 graduate students.
I'd estimate a cost of about $1 billion in construction cost, and $700 million in operating expenses and salaries.

And how much do we currently spend on defense?  Just want some perspective here. 
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Napoleon
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« Reply #59 on: August 25, 2012, 12:31:44 AM »

I was thinking a large research university. 20,000 undergraduate students and about 8,000 graduate students.
I'd estimate a cost of about $1 billion in construction cost, and $700 million in operating expenses and salaries.

And how much do we currently spend on defense?  Just want some perspective here. 

Nearly $400 billion, if you include veterans' spending (which I think we should, it's a direct result of a bloated military budget), we are talking $600 billion or so. Our surplus is about $85 billion.
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« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2012, 12:51:30 AM »

I don't have much of aproblem with this proposal... however, I would like to see it reach more then 20K students...the university near my home has over 50K and I believe a national university with many campuses ought to have more... if the purpose is to provide access to a college education

I also believe there is merit to involving the regions and also specializing the various universities
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benconstine
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« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2012, 10:44:26 AM »

An amendment:
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Donerail
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« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2012, 11:33:35 AM »

Can we add in a conscienctious objector clause to the tax section to exempt religious institutions who reject student loans for philosophical reasons?
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #63 on: August 26, 2012, 12:25:56 PM »
« Edited: August 26, 2012, 12:28:35 PM by Senator Scott »

I would consider Ben's amendment friendly.  It is important that we allocate the proper funding to the regions for large projects like this.

Can we add in a conscienctious objector clause to the tax section to exempt religious institutions who reject student loans for philosophical reasons?

Do you know anyone who manages a parochial college that objects to student loans for philosophical reasons? Huh
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Donerail
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« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2012, 12:41:32 PM »

Can we add in a conscienctious objector clause to the tax section to exempt religious institutions who reject student loans for philosophical reasons?

Do you know anyone who manages a parochial college that objects to student loans for philosophical reasons? Huh

See Shua's post from a page ago.
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Sbane
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« Reply #65 on: August 26, 2012, 12:57:48 PM »

I don't have much of aproblem with this proposal... however, I would like to see it reach more then 20K students...the university near my home has over 50K and I believe a national university with many campuses ought to have more... if the purpose is to provide access to a college education

I also believe there is merit to involving the regions and also specializing the various universities

I think most state universities are about the size I proposed. Maybe that's not true for the really big ones like University of Florida or Ohio State University but I wouldn't mind if our universities were a little smaller than that. I find your idea about specializing the universities to be interesting. What were you thinking of in particular.

Also Ben's amendment is friendly. Though do we need to appropriate even more? Shua, I would like a tuition rate of $7,500 per year for undergrads and $10,000 per year for graduate students. How much is the shortfall after taking into account Ben's amendment. I can do the math but I don' t know if schools have alternative revenue sources, especially in an university with research facilities and sports programs.
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Sbane
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« Reply #66 on: August 26, 2012, 01:00:41 PM »

Can we add in a conscienctious objector clause to the tax section to exempt religious institutions who reject student loans for philosophical reasons?

Do you know anyone who manages a parochial college that objects to student loans for philosophical reasons? Huh

See Shua's post from a page ago.

He didn't mention any specific schools. Do you have an example?
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #67 on: August 26, 2012, 01:01:51 PM »

Shua, would you please elaborate on your claim regarding schools that oppose student loans for philosophical reasons?  I'm unclear as to why they would and particularly what type of schools actually do.
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shua
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« Reply #68 on: August 26, 2012, 02:24:17 PM »

Shua, would you please elaborate on your claim regarding schools that oppose student loans for philosophical reasons?  I'm unclear as to why they would and particularly what type of schools actually do.
Hillsdale and Grove City College, most famously, but there are others as well.  Receiving federal student loans brings with it the possibility of strings attached (Title IX, for example) because it is legally considered indirect federal assistance to the institution.
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #69 on: August 26, 2012, 02:28:57 PM »

Sbane, what are your thoughts on including an exemption?
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #70 on: August 26, 2012, 07:29:41 PM »

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Sponsor Feedback: Friendly
Status: Senators have 24 hours to bobject.
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shua
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« Reply #71 on: August 26, 2012, 08:04:36 PM »

I don't have much of aproblem with this proposal... however, I would like to see it reach more then 20K students...the university near my home has over 50K and I believe a national university with many campuses ought to have more... if the purpose is to provide access to a college education

I also believe there is merit to involving the regions and also specializing the various universities

I think most state universities are about the size I proposed. Maybe that's not true for the really big ones like University of Florida or Ohio State University but I wouldn't mind if our universities were a little smaller than that. I find your idea about specializing the universities to be interesting. What were you thinking of in particular.

Also Ben's amendment is friendly. Though do we need to appropriate even more? Shua, I would like a tuition rate of $7,500 per year for undergrads and $10,000 per year for graduate students. How much is the shortfall after taking into account Ben's amendment. I can do the math but I don' t know if schools have alternative revenue sources, especially in an university with research facilities and sports programs.

The figure of $700 million/yr was after factoring in the expected contribution from research grants and revenue from things like sports programs.  From the numbers you gave for tuition, based on the student size that's $230 million.  So $470 million would be needed.  (But you're not going to be able to build a 28,000 student university for $140 million anyway.)
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Sbane
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« Reply #72 on: August 26, 2012, 10:42:05 PM »

Sbane, what are your thoughts on including an exemption?

I don't think we can create an exemption for just philosophical reasons because every for-profit school will claim the same. The easiest way to remedy the situation is to apply the tax only to for-profit schools but that would likely be unconstitutional.
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Sbane
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« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2012, 10:51:05 PM »
« Edited: August 26, 2012, 10:53:16 PM by Senator Sbane »

I object to Ben's amendment and it is unfriendly now. We need to appropriate more money to construct and run the university. Here is my own amendment:

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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #74 on: August 26, 2012, 11:16:55 PM »

Sbane, what are your thoughts on including an exemption?

I don't think we can create an exemption for just philosophical reasons because every for-profit school will claim the same. The easiest way to remedy the situation is to apply the tax only to for-profit schools but that would likely be unconstitutional.

Wouldn't schools have had to express a philosophical opposition to student loans beforehand, though?  If a school objects after the bill is passed, then their claim would likely be thrown out.

To be honest, though, I'm not sure why these schools object to student loans on a philosophical basis.  Using that logic, it seems we can allow anyone to pick and choose the laws they don't agree with because they're allegedly philosophically opposed to them.
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