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Author Topic: Marikana  (Read 1105 times)
Sibboleth
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« on: August 18, 2012, 01:09:34 pm »
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In case no one's heard there's something of a political crisis in South Africa at the moment.

BBC article on today's developments here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19305698

Anyways, what's going on is going on because thirty four (regrettably your eyesight is fine) miners at the Marikana platinum mine in North West Province were murdered by police on Thursday during a messy industrial dispute that had already been characterised by an unusual level of violence and death. All kinds of issues have been raised by what's happened, including a lot of internal ANC stuff; one factor in the violent nature of the dispute (though not the massacre) has been conflict between the established miners union (which is very much part of the ANC power structure) and a militant breakaway union.
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"It is the essence of a true democracy that people should be respected individually, not simply collectively. It is also of the essence of a democracy that differences and distinctions are recognised and, where relevant, honoured. A democracy should be above all a thoughtful type of society, in these and other respects."

Richard Hoggart
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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2012, 04:52:09 am »
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I thought this sort of thing went out with PW Botha...

When a bunch of people charge at you with machetes and clubs, you're going to have to do something, but this should never have gotten to that stage in the first place.
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dead0man
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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2012, 07:32:23 am »
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First the ongoing Farm Murders, now this.  Ugg, S.Africa is turning into a pile of sh**t.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2012, 07:58:19 am »
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It's not been the nicest place for almost 70 years now.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2012, 10:56:37 am »
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First the ongoing Farm Murders, now this.  Ugg, S.Africa is turning into a pile of sh**t.

"Turning into"?
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As I have noted before 'paradigm shift' is an anagram of 'grasp dim faith'
Sibboleth
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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2012, 04:34:38 pm »
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19424484

...

...

...
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"It is the essence of a true democracy that people should be respected individually, not simply collectively. It is also of the essence of a democracy that differences and distinctions are recognised and, where relevant, honoured. A democracy should be above all a thoughtful type of society, in these and other respects."

Richard Hoggart
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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2012, 04:51:12 pm »
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What. The. FuÁk. Is. This. sh**t.
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2012, 05:17:56 pm »
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It is a fossile from Apartheid in South Africa's legal system.

Surely this is hurting the ANC, and surely this is especially hurting Zuma's image?
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Yelnoc
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« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2012, 05:47:42 pm »
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Here is an interesting article from Al Jazeera which attempts to put this conflict in South Africa into a wider regional context.
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koenkai
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« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2012, 06:35:51 pm »
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Surely this is hurting the ANC, and surely this is especially hurting Zuma's image?

Does it matter? The ANC can't lose elections.
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2012, 07:03:11 pm »
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Surely this is hurting the ANC, and surely this is especially hurting Zuma's image?

Does it matter? The ANC can't lose elections.

Zuma can lose a leadership election. For starters.
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koenkai
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« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2012, 07:06:47 pm »
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Surely this is hurting the ANC, and surely this is especially hurting Zuma's image?

Does it matter? The ANC can't lose elections.

Zuma can lose a leadership election. For starters.

True, but the cronyism, kleptocracy, corruption, incompetence, and crassness will continue. Zuma is just a symptom of the ailment.
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Sibboleth
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« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2012, 07:20:14 pm »
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The ANC can't lose elections.

Not to the opposition anyway.
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"It is the essence of a true democracy that people should be respected individually, not simply collectively. It is also of the essence of a democracy that differences and distinctions are recognised and, where relevant, honoured. A democracy should be above all a thoughtful type of society, in these and other respects."

Richard Hoggart
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« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2012, 07:38:21 pm »
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Surely this is hurting the ANC, and surely this is especially hurting Zuma's image?

Does it matter? The ANC can't lose elections.

Neither could Mapai...until they did.

Now, the ANC is not approaching a 1977-event at the next general election, or the one after that, but when it's the 2020s and they're corrupt and they've been in power for 30 years and (probably, by then) significant black non-regionalist groups have managed to build up significant followings? They'll be screwed.
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koenkai
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« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2012, 07:55:38 pm »
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Surely this is hurting the ANC, and surely this is especially hurting Zuma's image?

Does it matter? The ANC can't lose elections.

Neither could Mapai...until they did.

Now, the ANC is not approaching a 1977-event at the next general election, or the one after that, but when it's the 2020s and they're corrupt and they've been in power for 30 years and (probably, by then) significant black non-regionalist groups have managed to build up significant followings? They'll be screwed.

See, that's what I thought once. Especially after that CORE thing. CORE was terrible too, but I had suspected that a party split would weaken the ANC % of the vote. It did not.

The Democratic Alliance is actually a pretty good opposition party. After all, I'm pretty sure almost every single person on this forum would vote for the DA if they lived in South Africa.
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Senator PiT
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« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2012, 11:47:51 am »
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     It seems as if South Africa really hasn't changed since the end of Apartheid (other than the obvious change of not having Apartheid).
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Peter the Lefty
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« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2012, 11:14:08 am »
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Surely this is hurting the ANC, and surely this is especially hurting Zuma's image?

Does it matter? The ANC can't lose elections.

Neither could Mapai...until they did.

Now, the ANC is not approaching a 1977-event at the next general election, or the one after that, but when it's the 2020s and they're corrupt and they've been in power for 30 years and (probably, by then) significant black non-regionalist groups have managed to build up significant followings? They'll be screwed.

See, that's what I thought once. Especially after that CORE thing. CORE was terrible too, but I had suspected that a party split would weaken the ANC % of the vote. It did not.

The Democratic Alliance is actually a pretty good opposition party. After all, I'm pretty sure almost every single person on this forum would vote for the DA if they lived in South Africa.
Meh.  If it were between them and the ANC, I would.  I'd prefer the UDM, even though they're just as hopeless. 
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Sibboleth
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« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2012, 11:38:25 am »
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The Democratic Alliance is actually a pretty good opposition party.

And the fact that you think that is one reason (or, rather, indicative of) why they will never win an election, at least not in their present form.
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"It is the essence of a true democracy that people should be respected individually, not simply collectively. It is also of the essence of a democracy that differences and distinctions are recognised and, where relevant, honoured. A democracy should be above all a thoughtful type of society, in these and other respects."

Richard Hoggart
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« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2012, 12:04:35 pm »
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After all, I'm pretty sure almost every single person on this forum would vote for the DA if they lived in South Africa.

This might well be true.  However, almost every single person on this forum is not black.
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The Handsome Monkey King Son Wukong weighs in on politics.
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« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2012, 12:05:13 pm »
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Good job with the transition...
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koenkai
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« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2012, 12:07:05 pm »
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After all, I'm pretty sure almost every single person on this forum would vote for the DA if they lived in South Africa.

This might well be true.  However, almost every single person on this forum is not black.

Which is why there really isn't much the DA can do. The ANC still has at least a generation of do-anything-we-want-and-we'll-still-win. At the very least.
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Emperor Dubya
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« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2012, 01:03:22 pm »
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So the usual standards we have come to expect from the ANC.
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