The other Armstrong

[Filuwaúrdjan]

We have a reasonable number of cycling followers here, do we not?

So then...

[afleitch]

Difficult one.

Either Armstrong gave up because it wasn't worth the fight but was innocent or he was indeed guilty. Eitherway the authorities generally suck.

Lance Armstrongs first 'title' can't go to the second place cyclist as he doped and his 2005 title has to go to the 8th placed cyclist because the other 6 doped.

[minionofmidas]

Difficult one.

Either Armstrong gave up because it wasn't worth the fight but was innocent or he was indeed guilty. Eitherway the authorities generally suck.

Lance Armstrongs first 'title' can't go to the second place cyclist as he doped and his 2005 title has to go to the 8th placed cyclist because the other 6 doped.

All the title contenders of the era doped, though none doped their team as systematically as Armstrong. I find these to both be statements that can be made with a reasonable degree of certitude.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Am I correct in intimating that Armstrong had other people dope and then give him their blood, or am I misunderstanding how that works? Because if that happened in a sports movie or something it could easily go into David Cronenberg territory.

[minionofmidas]

No, these people conserved and later recycled their own blood. I'm not entirely sure on the mechanics, but it's indeed a little, um, Cronenbergish.

[Platypus]

There's not much honour in not playing the game because you know you're going to lose, but I guess it'll fool enough people, particularly back in the states where they don't know just how near-certain it was that he, along with everyone else, was doping to some degree.

I happen to think blood recycling isn't morally as bad as doping, but it is illegal, and we can be 100% sure any rider finishing in the top 10 of the Tour de France or any major tour between 1996-2008 was doing at least that. I think some riders are definitely cleaner than others - as much as I think he's a dickhead, I don't think Wiggins dopes, and I'm certain Cadel Evans doesn't - although both may have been blood recyclers in the past - but I wouldn't put Armstrong in that category. I believe he is a cheat, I believe he was about to get irrefutably caught, and I believe he is jumping now before he's pushed in order to maintain a little bit of respect from those fooled in to respecting him in the first place.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

In a way he has been irrefutably caught; but in the way a white collar criminal might be, rather than a sporting doper (i.e. papertrail and witnesses).

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

You have to wonder if the testicular cancer he famously overcame might not have been a result of whatever he was taking.

[minionofmidas]

You have to wonder if the testicular cancer he famously overcame might not have been a result of whatever he was taking.

His performances exploded afterwards. Which is perfectly reasonable as his papers as a recovering cancer patient doubled as a fairly comprehensive free doping pass (much like all top cyclers are certified "asthmatics" because such a medical certification legalizes some classes relatively harmless but banned performance-enhancers.)

[Insula Dei]

Everybody knew Armstrong was messing around at least in some ways. That he now decides he doesn't need to see his former team mates help erect the gallows if he is to hang anyway, would be to his credit if he hadn't been so passive-aggressive about the whole thing.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

Related?

[minionofmidas]

Everybody knew Armstrong was messing around at least in some ways. That he now decides he doesn't need to see his former team mates help erect the gallows if he is to hang anyway, would be to his credit if he hadn't been so passive-aggressive about the whole thing.

What he did now was the only way to avoid the choice between a public admission of guilt and a jail term for perjury.

[Insula Dei]

Everybody knew Armstrong was messing around at least in some ways. That he now decides he doesn't need to see his former team mates help erect the gallows if he is to hang anyway, would be to his credit if he hadn't been so passive-aggressive about the whole thing.

What he did now was the only way to avoid the choice between a public admission of guilt and a jail term for perjury.

That too, of course. The Americans are so serious about the whole perjury thing when it comes to doping.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I wonder how long it'll be before some schockly film or telly drama about the scandal is made.

[muon2]

Here's an idle thought to "inject" into the thread.

In many sports there are infractions of the rules that regularly occur, but only warrant a penalty when it reaches a certain level. For example in American professional football it is widely acknowledged that holding occurs on almost every play in violation of the rules. Linemen can't protect the QB against top athletes without doing it. Yet it is only actually penalized on obvious visible occurrences. What if the NFL carefully watched the game films of the Super Bowl after the MVP retired and said that his team was clearly violating the holding rule, benefited and won because they weren't called on it, and reversed the result of the game?

With that in mind was the crime doping or failing a doping test? A decade ago, as I watched the TDF the sense was that all the best were involved to some degree, but if it wasn't to a degree that resulted in a failed test they were clean enough. Today the sense is clearly that the crime is doping, not failing a test. No doubt that the rules say you can't dope, but if the penalty back in the day was to be based on a failed test, isn't this like reviewing game films years after it happened?

[angus]

It must be difficult to balance on the saddle with only one testicle.