God vs Science-TIME
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All Along The Watchtower
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« on: November 20, 2012, 08:00:42 PM »


Old article, but interesting and relevant even now.


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And a debate between Richard Dawkins, Francis Collins, and  TIME, in transcript form:

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snip:

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snip:
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snip:

And concluding thoughts:

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Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1555132,00.html#ixzz2CoWb0GOH

Thoughts? Comments?
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2012, 08:14:40 PM »
« Edited: November 20, 2012, 08:43:24 PM by DC Al Fine »

I disagree with the notion that science is chipping away at faith in the long term. The religious have higher birth rates and most traditionalists are pretty insular. They won't be going away anytime soon

One thing I'd like to note. The notions that religion/secular humanism will die in the face of facts is brought up far too often. Most people on this forum have an issue where they think the other side is just batsh**t crazy, yet they are in the minority on the issue. The same applies to religion/scientism. Facts have nothing to do with population. What matters is converting people to the view and keeping existing adherents in.
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Joe Biden 2020
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2012, 10:52:45 PM »

No, religion is not going away.  It is a fact, not a theory, but a fact that cannot be changed that God will come back to the earth someday soon and set the record straight and dispel the scientific "facts" that don't line up with the Bible.  The Bible does not need to line up with Science, rather Science needs to line up with the Bible.
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DemPGH
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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2012, 09:26:22 AM »

Concepts of what God does / is have been retreating steadily since the 17th century, which was the time of the scientific revolution, and that's a very simple fact. I see religion becoming more and more of a social function.
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Oldiesfreak1854
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« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2012, 11:51:45 AM »

What I find amazing is that so many people seem to think that religion and science are incompatible and that they are two mutually exclusive things.  For most of history, science was seen (at least by scientists with strong religious faith) as a way to discover God and to confirm their faith.  For example, 17th century chemist Robert Boyle, a devout Christian, believed that science was a means to know and worship God and to get a glimpse into his perfection (The One Year Christian History, p. 733).  Only within the past century and a half have people began to view religion and science as diametrically opposed to one another.  Ironically, I believe this has a lot to do with Charles Darwin publishing The Origin of Species (1859), since, like Boyle, Darwin is believed to have been a devout Christian.  I still believe that science and religion are very much compatible, and if you search for the answers as to why they seem to contradict each other, you will find them.
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Joe Biden 2020
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« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2012, 04:50:16 PM »

Concepts of what God does / is have been retreating steadily since the 17th century, which was the time of the scientific revolution, and that's a very simple fact. I see religion becoming more and more of a social function.

I'll grant you that church membership is declining and so are those who profess Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, but God will always leave a remnant of faithful people in every generation.

Also, one needs to remember, that even though church membership may be declining, God is not declining and will come back to take His church home regardless of what anyone believes.
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Nathan
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2012, 05:21:49 PM »

I don't think the changes in 'concepts of what God does/is' over recent centuries can really be seen as 'retreats' without starting from a particular such concept in the first place, in which case as in others many atheists of the current strain seem to have a significantly more specific, and for that matter more 'traditionalist' (although not actually traditional), idea of God in mind than most theologians.
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2012, 06:05:11 PM »

No, religion is not going away.  It is a fact, not a theory, but a fact that cannot be changed that God will come back to the earth someday soon and set the record straight and dispel the scientific "facts" that don't line up with the Bible.  The Bible does not need to line up with Science, rather Science needs to line up with the Bible.

Unfortunately, you've been 100% wrong in literally everything you've ever done in your life - past, present, and in all likelihood, future - so your concept of 'facts' is certainly a loose one.
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2012, 06:05:38 PM »

I don't think the changes in 'concepts of what God does/is' over recent centuries can really be seen as 'retreats' without starting from a particular such concept in the first place, in which case as in others many atheists of the current strain seem to have a significantly more specific, and for that matter more 'traditionalist' (although not actually traditional), idea of God in mind than most theologians.


It has been argued, actually, that one of the factors that brought on modernity and the inherent break-up between faith and reason* was a clear expansion in the idea of God. We started thinking God transcendentally, fully withdrawn from this world somewhere in the 15th or 16th century (re: the rise of nominalism) and thus created a sphere where a autonomous reason could go its own way, independent of auctoritas. ( And then, of course, we wind up with a long discourse about the 'logic of division' as characteristic for modernity, which I'll spare the lot of you for now).


*: Or rather: between theological and scientifical reason, as faith and reason were clearly distinguished from the period of high-scholasticism onwards.
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Joe Biden 2020
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2012, 06:06:53 PM »

No, religion is not going away.  It is a fact, not a theory, but a fact that cannot be changed that God will come back to the earth someday soon and set the record straight and dispel the scientific "facts" that don't line up with the Bible.  The Bible does not need to line up with Science, rather Science needs to line up with the Bible.

Unfortunately, you've been 100% wrong in literally everything you've ever done in your life - past, present, and in all likelihood, future - so your concept of 'facts' is certainly a loose one.

If that's not an insult, I don't know what is.
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2012, 06:13:54 PM »

No, religion is not going away.  It is a fact, not a theory, but a fact that cannot be changed that God will come back to the earth someday soon and set the record straight and dispel the scientific "facts" that don't line up with the Bible.  The Bible does not need to line up with Science, rather Science needs to line up with the Bible.

Unfortunately, you've been 100% wrong in literally everything you've ever done in your life - past, present, and in all likelihood, future - so your concept of 'facts' is certainly a loose one.

If that's not an insult, I don't know what is.

Then allow me to assist: it was more of a fact than you would have any idea about.
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Joe Biden 2020
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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2012, 06:15:15 PM »

No, religion is not going away.  It is a fact, not a theory, but a fact that cannot be changed that God will come back to the earth someday soon and set the record straight and dispel the scientific "facts" that don't line up with the Bible.  The Bible does not need to line up with Science, rather Science needs to line up with the Bible.

Unfortunately, you've been 100% wrong in literally everything you've ever done in your life - past, present, and in all likelihood, future - so your concept of 'facts' is certainly a loose one.

If that's not an insult, I don't know what is.

It's more of a fact than you would have any idea about.

I know you hate my guts, but do you have to be so vocal about it?
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2012, 06:25:43 PM »

You've made it a point to be extremely vocal in sharing every minute detail of your thoroughly uninteresting life, including every single abject failure and bizarre belief (see above) therein.  You need to be told equally vocally just how utterly - and I can't emphasize the word utterly enough - ridiculous it all is.

My point here is that you've stated that your improbable and implausible belief system is undeniable fact, and I'm here to remind you that your grip on facts has been demonstrably (and often deliberately) false.
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Joe Biden 2020
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« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2012, 06:31:08 PM »

You've made it a point to be extremely vocal in sharing every minute detail of your thoroughly uninteresting life, including every single abject failure and bizarre belief (see above) therein.  You need to be told equally vocally just how utterly - and I can't emphasize the word utterly enough - ridiculous it all is.

My point here is that you've stated that your improbable and implausible belief system is undeniable fact, and I'm here to remind you that your grip on facts has been demonstrably (and often deliberately) false.

I know what I believe.  Others have the right to their own opinions and beliefs as this is America and we have the freedom of religion, but in the end there is only one way things are going to end up.  I don't claim to have all the answers (and I apologize if it sounds like I have), but I know whom I have believed.
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2012, 06:48:41 PM »

What you just posted ('it's just my belief/opinion!') contradicts your first post in this thread ('my beliefs are fact and that's just the way it is!').
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Joe Biden 2020
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« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2012, 06:56:51 PM »
« Edited: November 21, 2012, 06:58:40 PM by Merry Christmas, America!! »

What you just posted ('it's just my belief/opinion!') contradicts your first post in this thread ('my beliefs are fact and that's just the way it is!').

I believe my beliefs are facts, but again I don't have all the answers.  I apologize for the contradiction.  Last night, I was upset about something and my frustration poured into my posts on this thread and the similar thread in the 2016 board.  If you want to read my "apology", read the Rubio thread in the 2016 board.

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=165137.0
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2012, 07:38:22 PM »

If you can't prove something with evidence, it's not a fact. Today is Thursday for me, that's a fact. The Earth rotates around the Sun, that's a fact. There is a tree outside my office window, that's a fact... believing your beliefs (with no evidence base) are facts is well, wrong.

You believe it... as is your right, but you cannot in any serious way regard them as "fact"... sorry but this is one of my biggest pet peeves.
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The world will shine with light in our nightmare
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« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2012, 09:26:19 PM »
« Edited: November 21, 2012, 09:38:01 PM by Governor Scott »

It's funny.  A theology dean/author and I sent a couple emails back and forth today about issues just like this.  I wish more Christians would stop believing that the only way to understand the Bible, or any of its underlying messages, is by taking it at face value and not even being open to the idea that it can be reconciled with scientific facts that most of the world has seem to come to accept by now.  As the dean told me today, clearly some of the Bible was not meant to be read literally in the first place, and while some other parts were thought to be literally true at the time, we know now that the writers were wrong -- or, at the very least, simply not trying to construct a scientific hypothesis.  I'm definitely not one of those who think that the acknowledgement of science requires the abandonment of belief, but that of course puts me at odds with folks on both sides of the issue.

As to Bushie's post... I'm sorry, but I can't believe that was actually typed by human hands Tongue... but I suppose we all just have to agree to disagree, at some point...
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2012, 11:47:01 PM »

The Bible, in fact, all religious books are interesting in many ways, not the least of which being the first attempts to explain scientific and natural phenomena. I mean, mostly it's completely wrong. It was normal to explain the inexplicable as being 'divine' or at least God-inspired.

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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2012, 05:50:03 AM »

Did this thread just step out of the 19th century? All of it, I mean. I absolutely mean all of it.
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afleitch
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« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2012, 06:30:22 AM »

Did this thread just step out of the 19th century? All of it, I mean. I absolutely mean all of it.

Come on now, don't do the 19th Century an injustice Smiley What is interesting is that 'contentious' issues like the age of the earth, evolution and the steady embrace of science, even if not fully explored or understood were generally accepted (or moving towards acceptance) by mainstream Christianity in the late Victoria era. It was only really after the 1950's and the evangelical revival that some Christian churches began to oppose it (and sowed the seeds of the gay witch-hunts and abortion centric rhetoric that would characterise the years to come). Of course now it's permeated throughout the political sphere in America and to a greater extent and more dangerous extent in Africa.
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Franzl
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« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2012, 09:50:07 AM »

The Bible does not need to line up with Science, rather Science needs to line up with the Bible.

That would defeat the entire purpose of science.
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2012, 11:30:49 AM »

>implying that science and religion are completely incompatible
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« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2012, 12:53:04 PM »
« Edited: November 22, 2012, 12:56:40 PM by Nathan »

Did this thread just step out of the 19th century? All of it, I mean. I absolutely mean all of it.

My first reaction when I saw the thread title was 'Oh. This sh**t again.' My second was 'Well this is going to be a misery.'

The perception that a lot of these Dawkins-types have managed to create around themselves that there is anything remotely revolutionary or new about their worldview really is one of the most unintentionally comical things.
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