In New Hampshire, transgender 3rd grader is now allowed to go to school as girl

[Mister Twister]

 http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/09/25/report-transgender-3rd-grader-will-be-allowed-to-use-girls-bathroom/
 
Interesting. Do third graders even know if they're transgender? Seems too young to me

[afleitch]

I understand alot of parents wish to protect their children by saying 'they are too young to know' when it comes to a variety of issues, but alot of transgender people and other LGBT individuals if asked as an adult will tell you that they knew who they were from a young age whether it's 5 or 14. A child will have great difficulty expressing who they are (and who they are not) but when it is expressed it has to be listened to. Now of course some children just play dress and roleplay and it all means nothing in the end so there has to be a degree of sensitivity. Just because it's a complex issue shouldn't mean it is simply ignored until the child is entering puberty (which psychologically can be a difficult time) or an adult. This girl will be much happier as a result.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

How did she get their parents to pay for the sex change?

[Mister Twister]

How did it get their parents to pay for the sex change?

Transgender =/= transsexual. In this case, the third grader still has boy parts but it dressing up as a girl

[Oldiesfreak1854]

Oh, New Hampshire, one of America's greatest states, I weep for your downfall.  You were the ninth state that was needed to ratify the Constitution and you gave us Nathaniel Berry, Jonathan Daniels, Judd Gregg, John Sununu, and so many other great Americans.  You were one of only six states to vote for Herbert Hoover over FDR in 1932.  You stood at the forefront of civil rights, the Republican Party, small government, low taxes, and Yankee conservatism.  But now you have legalized gay marriage and elected far-left Democrats at increasing rates.  But there is still hope for you, New Hampshire.  You are still a swing state, and you are on the cusps of electing Ovide Lamontagne as your Governor.  Oh, fair and noble Granite State, please do not relinquish your swing state status or succumb to liberal utopianism like your New England neighbors.  The Republican revival in New England begins with you.  

[Spanish Moss]

How did it get their parents to pay for the sex change?

What is the "it" you're referring to?

And transgender is an umbrella term - anyone who isn't gender normative, to put it simply.  You could be gender androgynous ("in the middle" with genders), genderqueer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer explains it), etc - doesn't necessarily mean transsexual.  Transsexual is very specific - where one's gender identity is specifically opposite that of their biological gender, it's under that transgender umbrella - and those are the individuals that typically get a sex change.

[Spanish Moss]

The bigotry in here is alarming - "I weep your downfall", "disgusting" - if this were equivalently about another minority, blacks, gays, etc somehow that would be less acceptable.  Now that it's becoming more and more unacceptable to be anti-gay (though there's still a LONG way to go), trans individuals are the last group it's okay to openly have a problem with and not be identified as promoting a bigoted viewpoint.

That is what is disgusting, if not morally criminal.

[memphis]

I don't really "get" the whole trans thing, but I don't see the big deal if one 3rd grader out of the millions out there feels the need to dress in the style that society has arbitrarily assigned to females. Seems like most kids today just wear pants and polos anyway. That's the school dress code here. I'm much more concerned about real problems like disease, hunger, and abuse.

[ingemann]

While I personal prefer to teach children to conform (and let them choose to be different when they become adults), I think this is a interesting experiment. I don't like the ideological part of it, but practical this will teach us a lot about gender roles and whether tolerance can really taught so early (let us all hope it can, if not this kid is going to go through hell).

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Disgusting. Just digsuting.

Oh, New Hampshire, one of America's greatest states, I weep for your downfall.  You were the ninth state that was needed to ratify the Constitution and you gave us Nathaniel Berry, Jonathan Daniels, Judd Gregg, John Sununu, and so many other great Americans.  You were one of only six states to vote for Herbert Hoover over FDR in 1932.  You stood at the forefront of civil rights, the Republican Party, small government, low taxes, and Yankee conservatism.  But now you have legalized gay marriage and elected far-left Democrats at increasing rates.  But there is still hope for you, New Hampshire.  You are still a swing state, and you are on the cusps of electing Ovide Lamontagne as your Governor.  Oh, fair and noble Granite State, please do not relinquish your swing state status or succumb to liberal utopianism like your New England neighbors.  The Republican revival in New England begins with you. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHU6K47qgc8

[opebo]

Fantastic!  Here in Thailand it is assumed that the child and the parents can tell if a child is 'a ladyboy' or 'gay' from a very young age. 

[後援会]

I don't really "get" the whole trans thing, but I don't see the big deal if one 3rd grader out of the millions out there feels the need to dress in the style that society has arbitrarily assigned to females. Seems like most kids today just wear pants and polos anyway. That's the school dress code here. I'm much more concerned about real problems like disease, hunger, and abuse.

This.

I mean, I've always thought of myself as extremely socially conservative (by American standards) and I'm voting Lamontagne, but the reaction of the school seems pretty reasonable to me. Kid wants to go to school while crossdressing. Okay, cool story bro. It's a thousand times less distracting than the kids who go to school in slutwear or gangwear.

I tend to actually be a proponent of strict dress codes/school uniforms, but this doesn't bother me. As long as he's wearing tasteful clothes, it's cool.

[後援会]

Fantastic!  Here in Thailand it is assumed that the child and the parents can tell if a child is 'a ladyboy' or 'gay' from a very young age. 

Those are very different things. Just because a society does not adopt the horrifically unhealthy dichotomous paranoia towards male sexuality that characterizes a great deal of the West does not mean it naturally adopts the socially destructive construct of "gayness" that characterizes other parts of the West.

After all, no Asian country recognizes "gay marriage" or civil unions, and none probably ever will.

[opebo]

Fantastic!  Here in Thailand it is assumed that the child and the parents can tell if a child is 'a ladyboy' or 'gay' from a very young age.  

Those are very different things. Just because a society does not adopt the horrifically unhealthy dichotomous paranoia towards male sexuality that characterizes a great deal of the West does not mean it naturally adopts the socially destructive construct of "gayness" that characterizes other parts of the West.

Dude, they have a whole analogous concept of 'Tom' and 'Dee' - lesbian identities which correspond to ladyboy and gay more or less - which are easily as accepted as the male identities.  A huge percentage of my students are lesbian as well as male gays and ladyboys.  So anyway, what are you talking about in the underlined portion - it isn't clear.

movie poster about 'tom and dee' couple:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

As far as I can tell 'marriage' is a very private affair here - people don't seem to take it all that seriously as a formalized or legal matter.

[後援会]

Gender and sex are different - something that probably gets lost in translation. Tom and Dee culture is very much about gender identity and has very little in common with Western conceptions of sexual orientation. Which is why it's always ridiculous when Westerners come in and go "see hah! They have just as many gays in Asia as we do. See, our culture is a human universal."

There's still an underlying assumption within the culture in that the natural relationship is cross-gendered. Thus Tom-Dee, not Tom-Tom or Dee-Dee. It is very different from Western homosexuality and it's why there's such a problem with labeling it as "oh see they're just lesbians".

And Thailand is pretty unique in that it has unusually flexible gender roles. If you look at stuff like Class S or danshoku, you don't even see that.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

I feel bad for transgender people when they get incorrectly lumped in with the whole gay/lesbian set far too quickly -- and far too inaccurately. Being gay is about what gender of person you fall in love with and otherwise desire sexually. That doesn't really factor in when you're 3 or 4 years old. But when you're transgender, there's something different -- a deep down seated feeling that you're not actually born as the correct gender. And it's not just psychological. There's a physical component too.

I wouldn't go around saying transgender kids should be getting sex change operations -- that can wait until after the chemical spigots get shut down post-puberty. But those poor kids know something is wrong. It does no one any favors to pretend otherwise.

[nclib]

I agree with Afleitch, and would add that the worst case scenario (child unsure or faking) is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be.

[後援会]

I have difficulty understanding why Americans end up "transgendered". I would think that gender roles are far more transient than biological sex. I've never understood why some people say "I feel more like a woman/man" since it's not like there's a strict biological basis for things we associate with gender. There's absolutely no reason a man can't be sensitive and caring and why a woman can't be ambitious and brave. Or that a man can't wear a skirt and a woman can't wear a suit. On the other hand, there is a strict biological basis to sex. If you're born male, it's impossible to have children with men. But if you don't fit in the common gender roles - just make up your own or ignore them. It's all a social construct anyways. I can understand why someone could be transgendered in a society with very strict gender roles (see: Thailand), but America? I don't really get it.

[Spanish Moss]

I don't really "get" the whole trans thing, but I don't see the big deal if one 3rd grader out of the millions out there feels the need to dress in the style that society has arbitrarily assigned to females.

It's almost always a matter of more than crossdressing, the fact that they are not the opposite sex is something that causes them emotional strife and - if they truly are transgender - sticks with them throughout puberty and beyond.  There are scientific theories for this (and it is called "gender dysphoria"), but it is as much of a choice as being gay (that is to say, it's not a choice).  I have numerous transsexual friends, and if you actually talk to any of them you'll find it's far more than just dressing in something as not-gender normative as dictated by culture.

[Spanish Moss]

I feel bad for transgender people when they get incorrectly lumped in with the whole gay/lesbian set far too quickly -- and far too inaccurately. Being gay is about what gender of person you fall in love with and otherwise desire sexually. That doesn't really factor in when you're 3 or 4 years old. But when you're transgender, there's something different -- a deep down seated feeling that you're not actually born as the correct gender. And it's not just psychological. There's a physical component too.

I wouldn't go around saying transgender kids should be getting sex change operations -- that can wait until after the chemical spigots get shut down post-puberty. But those poor kids know something is wrong. It does no one any favors to pretend otherwise.

Most trans individuals also hate being lumped in - ask a trans person if they'd rather the "t" in lgbt be its own movement, and 9 out of 10 will say yes.  Not only does it mislead those who don't really understand (which is most people, because society rarely addresses it) into thinking it's sexual, the glb throws the t under the bus whenever convenient for the movement.  Many trans people are quite frustrated by both these facts.

Pre-pubescent kids don't get sex change operations, there's a general policy of at least waiting until the first signs of puberty setting in to medically address it at all - and at that point, they only start giving hormone treatment.  I don't even think it's legal to give someone under 18 a sex change operation in the United States.

[Spanish Moss]

While I personal prefer to teach children to conform (and let them choose to be different when they become adults), I think this is a interesting experiment. I don't like the ideological part of it, but practical this will teach us a lot about gender roles and whether tolerance can really taught so early (let us all hope it can, if not this kid is going to go through hell).

"Teaching children to conform" often causes a great deal of emotional strife for them.

[Spanish Moss]

And in case you're wondering, no, I'm not transsexual - but if I were, I'd be very open about the fact (and proud).  But I do have quite a few trans friends, I'm aware of and have personally seen the vitriol toward these individuals, and it irks me.

And yes, there are posts in this thread (earlier on) which are purely bigoted, and if the moderators want to be consistent about not allowing bigoted statements, will do something about that fact.

[opebo]

Gender and sex are different - something that probably gets lost in translation. Tom and Dee culture is very much about gender identity and has very little in common with Western conceptions of sexual orientation. Which is why it's always ridiculous when Westerners come in and go "see hah! They have just as many gays in Asia as we do. See, our culture is a human universal."

They have just as many gays in every culture, Konkee.  They're just visible or not depending on the level of oppression.

There's still an underlying assumption within the culture in that the natural relationship is cross-gendered. Thus Tom-Dee, not Tom-Tom or Dee-Dee. It is very different from Western homosexuality and it's why there's such a problem with labeling it as "oh see they're just lesbians"

It isn't so different. There are tops and bottoms in many Western gay couples.  This article I liinked notes taht in private many of the rules about 'gender identity' adopted by Tom/Dee couples are not always strictly adhered to.

[Oldiesfreak1854]

Disgusting. Just digsuting.

Oh, New Hampshire, one of America's greatest states, I weep for your downfall.  You were the ninth state that was needed to ratify the Constitution and you gave us Nathaniel Berry, Jonathan Daniels, Judd Gregg, John Sununu, and so many other great Americans.  You were one of only six states to vote for Herbert Hoover over FDR in 1932.  You stood at the forefront of civil rights, the Republican Party, small government, low taxes, and Yankee conservatism.  But now you have legalized gay marriage and elected far-left Democrats at increasing rates.  But there is still hope for you, New Hampshire.  You are still a swing state, and you are on the cusps of electing Ovide Lamontagne as your Governor.  Oh, fair and noble Granite State, please do not relinquish your swing state status or succumb to liberal utopianism like your New England neighbors.  The Republican revival in New England begins with you. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHU6K47qgc8

What does this clip have to do with my mini-rant?

[Spanish Moss]

And yes, there are posts in this thread (earlier on) which are purely bigoted, and if the moderators want to be consistent about not allowing bigoted statements, will do something about that fact.

Any mod responses?